The Everlasting CCCP !

[Pandemoniak]

Communism has an elite. Planned has not. And under FM with 20% psych, people are not happier, they are more skilled -- talents are not happy people, this is not Civilization. Under 20% Psych FM there is more unhappy people that are overwhelmed by the absolute power given to the elites, a vbalance that maintains order in a more sadistic way than police.

[GeneralTacticus]

Communism has an elite. Planned has not.

I'd have thought you'd say this the other way around. The elite under Planned is the organization which administers the economy.

talents are not happy people, this is not Civilization.

1) If this was the case, then Talents / Drones would have no impact on Drone Riots or GAs at all.

2) Talents are not only more skilled, they're also better off (mainly as a result of being more skilled) and are thus more likely to be happy.

3) If most Talents weren't happy, the government wouldn't last long at all; unhappy intellectuals tend to be a bigger problem han unhappy factory workers, because they have the same potential for civil resistance and they can usually mobilize mass support much more effectively than uneducated people.

Under 20% Psych FM there is more unhappy people that are overwhelmed by the absolute power given to the elites

There is no 'unlimited power' given to elites, and you have presented no proof of this 'argument' other than your own ideological bias.

a vbalance that maintains order in a more sadistic way than police.

Ooh, how nasty! Watch the cruel capitalist oppress the poor worker by providing him with health care and education for his children! See how the evil government tortures the people by allowing them recreation time! We must overthrow this sytem of epxloitation based on the principle that you should do things to make people happy, in favour of one that says you tell people to be happy!

















EDIT: I don't think I included quite enough rolleyes smilies.

[Archaic]

Pan....they say a picture is worth a thousand words, so I think I'll let this speak for me.

[Main_Brain]

[Archaic]

And that altered Garfield strip is supposed to have any basis on this arguement how? At least I was commenting on Pan's position based upon his statements towards what GT had said there, but yours...

[Pandemoniak]

You're starting to become really pathetic, I feel really sorry for you... And GT, if you were not distorting what I say you'll see that FM is a system of elite ruling over masses, and impeaching any revolt by giving the drones little, just enough to survive, while they keep for themselves the biggest part of the cake, cooked by the drones themselves.

[Archaic]

Again....



Go learn what a Free Market actually is. Your willful ignorance is just insulting to the rest of humanity, not to mention to your comrades.

In short.

YOU. HAVE. BEEN.



(In the sense of you being defeated in debate of course. You're a free person under FM, there's no slave trade. Unlike under Planned, where everyone is effectivly a slave of the state.)

[GeneralTacticus]

I find it rather amusing that you getting people to support you by improving the quality of their lives as 'sadistic'.

As for the 'unlimited power givne to the elites' - I don't know what things ar elike in France, but aorund ehre we have this little thing called 'the legal system', which punishes people when they break the law, although unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working very well any more...

And as for "keeping for themselves the bigger par tof the cake cooke dby the Drones themselves" - I've got news for you, Pan, the Drones aren't the only ones who do work. They wouldn't achieve anything if they didn't have the raw materials, the plans, or the organization that gets things from point A to point B and makes things work properly. the drones may have cooked the cake, but the capitalists provided the ingredients and the recipe.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Archaic
(In the sense of you being defeated in debate of course. You're a free person under FM, there's no slave trade. Unlike under Planned, where everyone is effectivly a slave of the state.)

Yeah right, you're free under the market... Just like one might be a physical slave of the state under a planned, one can be a mental slave of the market. But no, I guess you believe your thoughts and beliefs are not determined or influenced by the information you receive in your regular life and by all sorts of media.

[GeneralTacticus]

You're perfectly free to disbleieve any information you're told, Maniac. If you think it's all garbage, no-ones going to stop you form doing so - and no-one's going to stop you from trying to find stuff out, either. If the FM was as effective at mind controlling people as you seem to think, neither of us would be typing this.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Maniac
Yeah right, you're free under the market... Just like one might be a physical slave of the state under a planned, one can be a mental slave of the market. But no, I guess you believe your thoughts and beliefs are not determined or influenced by the information you receive in your regular life and by all sorts of media.

Hey, Media still exists in a Planned economy you know, and it's state owned to boot. The problem's nowhere near as pronounced with a free media.

As for "Mental Slave of the Market"....that reeks of an implication that there's some sort of grand conspiricy. Let's apply Occam's Razor to this. One arguement says that the global economic community is right. The other says that the global economic community is participating in a grand conspiricy to keep "the truth" hidden. I don't think I even need to finish this paragraph. I'll just laugh instead.

I'm a very logical and analytical person as you've probably realised. My thoughts and beliefs can be influenced by information I receive in your regular life and by all sorts of media, just as with anyone else, including you and Pan....Hey, we've both been influenced by pretty much the exact same things, and we have different ideas! Wow, that arguement died quick.

In any case, as I was saying, my thoughts and beliefs can be influenced by information I receive in your regular life and by all sorts of media, but they are not determined by them. Afterall, I'm an Athiest, and western society is very much into indoctrinating Christanity. Want more proof? How about my social-economic and political beliefs not being influenced by my standing in society, as evidenced by the simple fact that I'm not better off in a Free Market, yet I recognise that the community gains as a whole.

Quite frankly, I think this whole matter is quite laughable. Pan is saying that a Planned economy is better. The majority of economist's the world over (There's always a crackpop fringe) agree that a Free Market is the way to go. Who do you think is right? Someone with no background in economics, no real understanding of social structures besides what he's created for himself in his head. Or many many hundreds of thousands of people who make the study of this their life?

[GeneralTacticus]

Well, obviously there can be problems with the media and it's portrayals of things in FM, as it is possible that a person or group will end up in control of most of the media, and will probably be able to drown out anyone who disagrees with them, but this isn't at all inevitable, whereas, as oyu point out, this problem is pretty much inherent in a Planned economy - it just depends on the integrity of the guys in charg,e which I wouldn't really want to trust in...

[Maniac]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
You're perfectly free to disbleieve any information you're told, Maniac. If you think it's all garbage, no-ones going to stop you form doing so - and no-one's going to stop you from trying to find stuff out, either.

If the FM was as effective at mind controlling people as you seem to think, neither of us would be typing this.

Actually that opinion:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
You're perfectly free to disbleieve any information you're told, Maniac.

could be a proof of my point.

Anyway, I'm not saying free market in se makes you a mental slave. Actually under any system and any time I'd say. The Church said the earth was flat, so many believed the earth was flat. The media, schools etcetera say free market is good, so many believe free market is good. Just a general principle: "Your thoughts and beliefs are heavily influenced by the information you receive." It seems obvious for the common man that if everybody says the earth is flat and you know of no facts to disprove that opinion, that man will believe the earth is flat. (That's a simple psychological fact. Your statement you can disbelieve anything you want doesn't change that.) From that point of view (which is relative of course ;-), you could say freedom of thought is an illusion, doesn't exist. No matter what system you're under.

Having that general principl in mind "Your thoughts and beliefs are heavily influenced by the information you receive."; an important question is: from whom do you receive most of your information? That would be, besides school of course, television, newspapers, etcetera. In the current trend of privatization and weakening of goverment broadcasting corporations etcetera, you get most of your information by private companies. Of course they tend to support the economic system which benefits them most and provide information to the public which supports the ideology that suits the companies. People believe that free market ideology because few sources preach another ideology. So yes, from that point of view you could say people are mental slaves under FM.

[GeneralTacticus]

And how would this achange under Green or Planned? Someone distributes the information, so someone has control over it. There's no real difference ebtween media control by the government or by private companies, except that private companies arne't all acting in concert with one another, while the government is another matter.

[Archaic]

And there's nothing preventing people from going out there to do their own research on the matter. However, ask yourself *why* there's so few sources preaching anything besides a Free Market. Because they're the crackpop fringe. And unless they can prove their opinions and theories (Which they never have), then Free Market should obviously remain the one that is taught as being superior.

(N.B. Economics courses give an unbiased perspective on the whole issue. Remember.....if you've got something that's obviously wrong on one side, and something that's obviously right on the other side, then it's not unbiased to say which one is a load of bull and which one isn't.)