Unofficial: War with Morgan

[GeneralTacticus]

All I’ve stated is that if we intend to fight the Hive in a full fledged conventional war in the future, we need a military.

So why attack Morgan?

In fact I don’t see a reason for us to engage the Hive in total war in the near future, given that logistically fighting a war abroad is costly in both lives and money.

Of course it's difficult, but it's not THAT difficult, assuming we make the right preparations. Moreover, Yang has far more land and resources than Morgan, and we would need to get rid of him anyway.

I’m arguing for a war on Morgan since it would benefit us, namely the region of which I’m Governor of, if we were to take a few of his bases to the east of our present expanse to enable ourselves to expand even further.

Your duty is to the well-being of the Peacekeeper faction as a whole, not to extending your own region.

As for a war with the Hive; I see no reason to wage a full scale one simply because we disagree with their ideology.

In case you've forgotten, they started it, they've refused to end it, and even if they do, thye will soon start another one. We have no realistic option but to destroy them. Morgan is completely different; we have no reason for conflict with them at all, save for our economic system, which he is quite correct in condemning.

Frankly the Morganite war makes more sense since we actually gains something form it, that something, as I’ve repeated countless times, is territory, resources, and bases.

And what we lose is our integrity, our right to be taken as honest, our chances of secruign further Pacts should we be the ones to cancel it, resources that would be better spent against the Hive, time taken to build a military we don't need yet instead of economic infrastructure, etc. It's not as if Morgan's land is that stellar anyway.

EDIT: We also lose Morgan's commerce, which is hardly insignificant, especially now. Not only that, but the bases which you want us to take aren't exactly well-developed, and might even be destroyed by the very act of capturing them.

Whereas with the war on the Hive we loose much more in terms of troops, that even a total victory might not be worth it in the short run.

Not in the short run, but definitely in the long run. We'd gain control of half a continent, eliminate our prime enemy, and as long as we fight the war properly and grab the CN right off the bat, our losses shouldn't be too severe.

[Voltaire]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
So why attack Morgan?

I said IF we fight a full fledged war wit the Hive.

As for why:

LAND + RESOURCES+ BASES

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Of course it's difficult, but it's not THAT difficult, assuming we make the right preparations. Moreover, Yang has far more land and resources than Morgan, and we would need to get rid of him anyway.

Well then let’s do it.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Your duty is to the well-being of the Peacekeeper faction as a whole, not to extending your own region.

My duty first is to my region, second to the Peacekeeper faction.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
In case you've forgotten, they started it, they've refused to end it, and even if they do, thye will soon start another one. We have no realistic option but to destroy them. Morgan is completely different; we have no reason for conflict with them at all, save for our economic system, which he is quite correct in condemning.

Morgan is in our way, and I’d prefer him to be out.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
And what we lose is our integrity, our right to be taken as honest, our chances of secruign further Pacts should we be the ones to cancel it, resources that would be better spent against the Hive, time taken to build a military we don't need yet instead of economic infrastructure, etc. It's not as if Morgan's land is that stellar anyway.

EDIT: We also lose Morgan's commerce, which is hardly insignificant, especially now. Not only that, but the bases which you want us to take aren't exactly well-developed, and might even be destroyed by the very act of capturing them.

Then we wait until they are developed. And that’s why we get the Morganites to declare war on us, not vice versa.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Not in the short run, but definitely in the long run. We'd gain control of half a continent, eliminate our prime enemy, and as long as we fight the war properly and grab the CN right off the bat, our losses shouldn't be too severe.

IF we fight the war properly; but we’re not a militant faction, while the Hive is. Morgan is more in our league than the Hive.

[GeneralTacticus]

LAND + RESOURCES+ BASES

The land, isn't that good, neither are the resource,s and we will probably end up having to rebuild the bases anyway.

Well then let’s do it.

We are agreed then, although we can't do it yet.

My duty first is to my region, second to the Peacekeeper faction.

Your duty is to the faction first an dnothing else second. You were elected by every PK citizen, to govern your region according to the interests of everyone, not just your own.

Morgan is in our way, and I’d prefer him to be out.

How exactly is he in our way? He has little of any real value in the area you want.

Then we wait until they are developed. And that’s why we get the Morganites to declare war on us, not vice versa.

If you're going to wait that long, you might as well drop the whole idea until then, because that will take a LONG, LONG time.

IF we fight the war properly; but we’re not a militant faction, while the Hive is. Morgan is more in our league than the Hive.

Just because we aren't militarists doesn't prevent us from waging an effective war.

[Lemmy]

Do we get to use atrocities?

[GeneralTacticus]

Seeing as how nerve stapling wouldn't be much use, no others are available and they're all illegal, my guess would be no.

[Aaron Blackwell]

I do not really see the point in attacking Morgan. On the other it is always good practice to have an army ready just in case he or other faction come on our lands to invade us.

As for expansion .... We have the weather paradigm, which means that we can raise or lower terrain, which means that we can create as much land as we need .... without having to wage war for that.


Besides, I think that we should take care of Yang first

[Hercules]

We 're not prepared for war yet. we need to prepare our defences ( the CDF) and build up attack units. But we do need to expand. And we haven't even met the other factions yet. A bit more exploration needed.

[DeathByTheSword]

well i havent read everything yet...but let me just answer these questions!:

we arent ready for war yet? yes you are correct that is way we need to build troops i dont say lets attack him in the next turnsession...

and if we want to wage war on the Hive we need first:

*some seabases where we cant send reinforcements from
*these bases need to produce well
*a lot more units then we need for a morgan war
*a lot more time

[Comrade Chris]

Definately not.. i dont see a point to do so... and i also think more exploration will be good

[Kirov]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
we arent ready for war yet? yes you are correct that is way we need to build troops

The question is if we need that war, not how to prepare for it. Building troops means not building infrastructure + problem with support. The only fact we don't have troops at the moment doesn't mean we should train them... Convince us, Herr DBTS, why the "Lebensraum" of Morgan and his pathetic bases, planted and improved in a ridiculous way, would be more beneficial than improving our already existing infra + e.g. raising land masses, as Aaron have pointed out. Besides, our values and agenda also have importance, haven't they? It seems like the faction I have joined on "Unity" and the faction I live in at the moment were two different ones...

[Micha]

hm, seems if people will have to chose between idealism and the way giving most advantages...

Well, as DBTS said :

i dont say lets attack him in the next turnsession...

it is a concern of far future, but there should be a decision whether it is possible for our faction or not. So we have to plan on long range then, whether doing land or sea invasion...
But two important points are the following: (I know they´ve been already said plenty of times)
--> Morgan is a weak ally, and he will be a week enemy, too
--> Annexing weaker faction makes us much more capable of dealing with stronger ones (more bases = more units to be produced + more weight on global policy)
think about it ! (I voted no, because I don´t want to declare war. Being attacked by Morgan is another thing)

[moomin]

Becaue Morgan is weak anyway, he's better as an ally! He'll do independant tech trading and research - all which benefits us directly - and we gain commerce. Should he turn on us, he's no threat. And what we don't need is a second front. We got plenty of room to expand yet.

All in all, there's absolutely no reason to war with Morgan. And every reason not to. Oh, and let's not forget; we're peacekeepers. Let's have some feeble excuse at hand at least before we start marching around in jackboots.

[Earwicker]

Considering Morgan is at the moment our ally, I vote we maintain that relationship. He is of more value in that role, for now. Should our pursuit of differing social agendas lead him to hate us and renounce the Pact, we will be in a different situation. And we should have this poll then.

If Morgan has been attempting to expand into the lands southeast of the Freshwater Sea, we can disrupt his efforts through our own expansion. With nowhere to found new bases, that threat will be gone. If he persists, then the threat situation will be different - again, hold th poll when the threat is more tangible.

[Voltaire]

Originally posted by Earwicker
Considering Morgan is at the moment our ally, I vote we maintain that relationship. He is of more value in that role, for now. Should our pursuit of differing social agendas lead him to hate us and renounce the Pact, we will be in a different situation. And we should have this poll then.

If Morgan has been attempting to expand into the lands southeast of the Freshwater Sea, we can disrupt his efforts through our own expansion. With nowhere to found new bases, that threat will be gone. If he persists, then the threat situation will be different - again, hold th poll when the threat is more tangible.

No one is suggesting we attack now. To put it bluntly, were unprepared. This isn’t even an official poll in regards to our policy towards Morgan, and therefore has no consequence on our official policy towards Morgan.

I’m surprised that the mere proposal of a tentative plan for an attack on Morganite territory, assuming we go to war, sparked this much outcry. So far I’ve been defending the logistical feasibility of an attack on Morgan, over one of an attack on the Hive. Along with the fact that we have much to gain when, and if, we do decide to attack Morgan, at relatively little cost to us. The operation called for by DBTS involved relatively little diversion of industry to military production, and the creation of an assault force rather than an entire army.

I’m surprised at some of the hypocrisy seen here. Crying out on moral ground that the war against Morgan would be reprehensible, while at the same time claiming that we know what is best for the people of the Hive. We cannot have it both ways. If we want to impose our moral and socio-economic views on the Hive, then why not on Morgan?

[Micha]

If we want to impose our moral and socio-economic views on the Hive, then why not on Morgan?

exactly! good point!