Official: Free Market Economics (Repost)

[Method]

Originally posted by Archaic
Are you *absolutly* sure you don't want to at least become an unofficial supporter of the DLP TKG? ^^;;

absolutely sure

[GeneralTacticus]

I think you have to decide which is more important, +2 Econ or avoiding the mistakes of old Earth.

These 'mistakes' being what? The 'mistakes' made on Earth were:

1) To allow oligarchies too much power in the West and elsewhere,

2) To allow the proliferation of weapons to an insane extent,

3) To interpret 'we don't need to worship the enironment' as 'let's destroy the environment'.

FM didn't cause any of these mistakes, it simply helped to magnify them (it should be noted that in the USSR, the environment was left in a far worse state than in the US, despite it's use of a Planned economy. The oligarchy also had far morw power there).

Edit: Besides, IMO pop-boom (from Planned, and building Children's Creches) is more important ATM than +2 Econ.

If we were going to Pop-boom, we should have done it already. we don't have nearly enough CC's to make it worthwhile, or enough Rec Commons, for that matter.

[GeneralTacticus]

[quote]

What I wanted to point out is that in RP discussion one should not use such arguments as: 'Hey, look! With FM we'll make the next breakthru in 10 turns!'...
[/quote}

What should we say then? 'FM will practically double our speed of scientific advancement'?

[Drogue]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
These 'mistakes' being what? The 'mistakes' made on Earth were:

1) To allow oligarchies too much power in the West and elsewhere,

2) To allow the proliferation of weapons to an insane extent,

3) To interpret 'we don't need to worship the enironment' as 'let's destroy the environment'.

To have a system whereby the Earths resources are used up at an unsustainable rate (eg. fossil fuels), to allow greed to push need out the window, to have half the worlds wealth in tha hands of less than 5% of the population, to produce enough food to feed the world, yet let many in the 3rd world starve, or die of diseases that we have cheap medication for, to allow companies, or even governments, to sell weapons to known violent regimes (as went on well into the 21st Century) and to create havok with the fragile eco-system.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
FM didn't cause any of these mistakes, it simply helped to magnify them (it should be noted that in the USSR, the environment was left in a far worse state than in the US, despite it's use of a Planned economy. The oligarchy also had far morw power there).

Can I have some evidence for this? The USSR by all accounts I'm aware of emited less pollutants than the USA per capita over 20th Century (or any period within the 20th Century IIRC)

[Micha]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
it should be noted that in the USSR, the environment was left in a far worse state than in the US, despite it's use of a Planned economy.

You don´t want to say the USSR has been the ideal Communism, right? In fact, the Soviets tried to build up industry at any cost, just to stay head on head with the USA. In real life, FM stands for "building up industry at any cost", just to gain more and more money. (As you can see now on Spain´s coast)
In-game, I fear that we will need all the money surplus to rushbuy military reinforcements for these units that we´ve lost when fighting against mindworms and isles (-30 % "bonus" !!!! ).

[Pandemoniak]

I fear that we will need all the money surplus to rushbuy military reinforcements for these units

... instead of providing good infrastructure to our citizens...

[Micha]

exactly!

[Pandemoniak]

Results until now :

Switch now : 6 / 17 votes -- minority

Switch ASAP - when worms out of sight : 7 / 17 votes -- minority

Switch ASAP - when trance defenders in place, after Environ. Eco. : 7 / 17 votes -- minority

Switch ASAP when worms out of sight, trance defenders in place, Env.Eco. researched : 8 votes -- minority

2 persons voted eventually and only one precised the conditions : Aaron Blackwell

Fortunately, the DoSE has to satisfy one more condition, plus all stated before : either Aaron's or John Doe's suggestion must be applied before a switch to FM. Can this John Doe please make himself known ?

[Kirov]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


What should we say then? 'FM will practically double our speed of scientific advancement'?

Any RP reason is better than in-game one, IMHO. But don't expect me to invent arguments for you.

If it was an SP game, I would have chosen FM myself much earlier, since it's very good SE setting. But in ACDG, with difficulty only at Thinker, we can allow ourselves to roleplay, thereby there is no saying things which consider game mechanics.

[DeathByTheSword]

btw all the Now voters should also be counted as an 'as soon as possible' and 'evetually' voter in my opinion.

[Pandemoniak]

DBTS, that s how I counted : the Switch ASAP, when worms are out of sight is the "now (6)"+"asap:when worms out of sight (1)", which makes seven. The problem is that one voted eventually without giving under what conditions. This will be really problematic to interprete the poll.

[DeathByTheSword]

yes well eventually is more like a abstain choice...but the as soon as possible choice is at 8 now and is an indication to hold a new poll very soon.

[Pandemoniak]

Well, now we have two John Doe...
one for ASAP, the other for eventually...

[Earwicker]

ASAP, contingent upon Env Econ (to make the +2 energy worthwhile), trance defenders, and enough empath worm-hunters to keep things safe.

The extra energy will enable quicker new discoveries and funds to amass our army against the Hive (as Demo/ FM/ Knowledge so no -2 morale). Two very reasonable priorities. The police problems can be managed with psych and the ecodamage situation needs to be settled whatever our economics. When the time comes to launch the attack against the Hive, then we need to go Green or back to planned.

I was very surprised that the ED formula quoted above didn't have a factor for Planet rating. That's different from what I remember and had expected. It is counterintuitive that the relationship of mineral count to ecodamage would be independent of planet rating.

Whatever our economic system (and hence, whatever our planet rating), monitoring of mineral production and ecodamage/ pop levels will be important. Ultimately, our industrial needs will suggest setting mineral levels as high as possible with either zero or low ecodamage. It's just that under Green, we'll be able to push that level somewhat higher. Then end results will be the same - some ecodamage and occasional pops.

[Pandemoniak]

It does have a factor for planet rating, i dont know which formula you've been looking at, but if it has no planet factor, thats a fake formula.