DoSE Choices: What should we switch to (if anything)?

[GeneralTacticus]

Free Market means no more exploring for some time, and we must be prepared to defend against the worms with more than what we might rely on otherwise. It will mean we need to build more infrasstructure in our bases earlier on, but will also give us the means to do so, and hopefully a fair amount more besides. The higher population we have the better for the energy bonus, so this points towards the Morgan favourite. fewer bases, but all of them are BIG.

We want to AVOID having big bases for the time being if we switch to FM, at least until we can implement some rudimentary drone control.

[DeathByTheSword]

i like the planned-demo idea but not just yet FM is too early because we are still expanding I do FM after my expansion fase....so hold it off for a turnsession and then look again but as it is now IF you want to change i would go for Planned/demo

[GeneralTacticus]

i like the planned-demo idea but not just yet FM is too early because we are still expanding I do FM after my expansion fase....so hold it off for a turnsession and then look again but as it is now IF you want to change i would go for Planned/demo

I agree we should hold off on FM... however I'm not so sure about Demo/Planned just yet. Planned alone would kill the economy, while Demo/Planned would kill the expansion.

[Maniac]

I voted Demo+Planned. As a fervent expansionist I recognize the problems of not having ten free minerals, but the advantages of +40% growth and +10% Industry are worth it IMO. Besides, the fact that we are sending a garrison along with CPs these days partially covers the lost minerals of our new bases. As for the loss of 1 mineral to support for each base, soon we will have crawler and one mineral less will hardly be a problem I think.

[Archaic]

But then it means we have no way to get a clear edge over the worms. If we defend, they get the bonus; if we attack, we lose most of it.

GT.....you're far too scared of such a minor nusiance as the worms, really. The more scouts we have out there exploring, the more of the blighters that'll crawl out. Let the formers plant forests, and let those eliminate the fungus. Problem solved.

True, perhaps, but we DO want to get those SPs done with a minimum of trouble. Switch afterwards.

Stop being afraid of a little micromanagement GT. All it means is that we just have to switch back to planned for one year at the right time. Geez.

Let me explain. The Growth & Industry bonuses work on the same system. They make things less expensive. However, they don't go off the *current* cost remaining until completion. They go off the original total cost.

ie.
Say we have something that takes 10 turns to build, and we start producing it at all bases. This is just under Free Market BTW.

After 8 turns, we switch to Planned. Now, the original cost of construction goes down to 9 turns. But we've already finished 8 turns, meaning that there's only 1 turns left to complete.

We complete next turn, and go back to FM.

Like I said, it's the same with growth, only its Nuts instead of Minerals. We had 10 turns to growth, switch to Planned on the 8th, and grow on the 9th.

In the meanwhile, our cash works for us, and while our exploration slows slightly, it won't be too hampered, with our borders increasing with every new base.

Perhaps I am. Do you want to find out?

*Yawn* You don't play SP or MP much, do you? The AI have less of an Industry Bonus than usual, meaning they have slower production. AI cities never use Crawlers, and so are often at maximum somewhere around 6~7 minerals at this stage of the game. We'd be playing catchup, yes, but when 3 of their turns of mineral production equals 1 of yours, even though they started with a lead, it's easy to grab multipule projects so long as you have multipule cities with these mineral levels and working on projects. (EG - A Head to Head game I'm playing against Flubber ATM. I've grabbed the WP, VW and EG, and will get the PTS within 2 turns. Flubber has no projects whatsoever. The 5 AI factions have 2 projects split between them, neither projects I especially needed or was aiming for.) If the game had been on Thinker like this one is, I would've grabbed the HGP as well.

We want to AVOID having big bases for the time being if we switch to FM, at least until we can implement some rudimentary drone control.

COMPLETLY the wrong way to go about things! If you have big bases under FM, then you can devote citizens to work as Doctors, increasing the Psych and leaving you with no drones. You produce the facilities at the same rate as you would in a smaller base, but your pop is already in place, and means you can take advantage of facilities upon the moment of completing them. Oh, and it's great for elections too.

Perhaps that's not a completely idiotic idea - it's what? - 32 energy per new base then (16 for each of 2 changes). Especially if we had Free Market and a Pact with the Morganites at the same time, we should be able to afford this......

HELL YES! BUT....only if we can make enough cash that the support hit won't kill our production, thanks to rushing. That will hinge on the Pact windfall from Morgan.
Also, in addition to this, we can pull those switches from FM to Planned for quick production boosts.

And like I said before....we'll have Morgans maps, and we can explore more as our colonies expand our borders. The current scouts could perhaps become the garrisons for these bases, saving us production time elsewhere in making escorts for the CP's. We already have them.

[moomin]

I'm divided over this issue. I would normally advocate Demo+Planned at this point, but us having met up with Morgan means there are interesting synnergies going FM as well. Hmm.

[AdamTG02]

My position:

Democracy now. As soon as possible. This is my major campaign issue, and if we can accomplish it before the next term, so much the better.

Archaic has a point that we will lose the free garrisons for new bases -- but that can be remedied by building a scout or garrison as well as a colony pod when expanding. This will slow down our expansion, but shield the pod against mind worms.

As for Free Market, the benefit that appeals to me the most is the abilit to rely on the friendship of our neighbor Morgan. At this stage, we aren't prepared to start a war. Free Market would stave off war with Morgan indefinitely, and probably allow us to Pact with him. The hit on our exploration would be counteracted by the increased research.

However, that's far from the only option. If we go Planned, we should do so with the expectation that it will lead to war with Morgan -- because that would be the eventual result. With that in mind, we should prepare Command Centers and Children's Creches in our bases, building units only when those two morale-increasing facilities are in place. This would offset Democracy's support costs. (I don't consider going to Planned without Democracy a realistic option.) Under Planned, we would also want to build Synthmetal Garrisons for our eastern colonies.

Staying with Simple will allow us to continue to pursue a builder strategy, but we lose the industrial and growth bonuses of Planned. This is a middle course -- we avoid FM's eco-disruption, and avoid Planned's risk of antagonizing Morgan. As a middle course, it might very well be the best course of action for the moment.

I lean toward Free Market, simply because, even though it would antagonize Deirdre, Morgan is a known quantity while Deirdre is not. At the moment, we aren't prepared to start a war. Free Market would allow us to pursue a Builder strategy.

However, my support for Free Market would evaporate if we were unable to explore. I am going off of the assumption that Probe Teams and transports, as well as unsupported Unity Rovers discovered by those transports, will provide a viable exploration force for the midgame. If we can't pop half the pods in "unclaimed" territory, we're not doing our job. Because of my desire to avoid war, I'd support using probes for exploration in the north, even if it results in heavy losses to mindworms.

The caveat to that is that we would need to make filling up this continent a heavy priority. Once we can be sure of Morgan's friendship, we need to fill up the unclaimed territory on the way to Morgan ASAP. Then we can focus on the north, and expand onto the new terrain there. A shift to Free Market would mean that, rather than focusing on charting new territory and pod-popping, we would focus on consolidating the territory now within our reach. The reason is that, with Morgan's friendship, we would be able to rely on less of a negative response than if we claimed the intermediary territory with a Planned economy.

The points I'm going over above are options. My intent as a candidate is to ensure that we institute a Democratic society as soon as possible; the rest is secondary. However, it's not my style to rule out any options -- I'm considering Free Market as well as Planned, which may cost me support. The ultimate decision on economics will be in the hands of the voters -- all I will try to do, elected or not, is to chart out the options and go over the likely consequences of each one.

[Method]

Originally posted by moomin
I'm divided over this issue. I would normally advocate Demo+Planned at this point, but us having met up with Morgan means there are interesting synnergies going FM as well. Hmm.

i agree

once we get automation though, i'd like to initiate wealth, which would be just as good as FM if we could get some GAs going (very possible with our talent bonus)

[GeneralTacticus]

GT.....you're far too scared of such a minor nusiance as the worms, really. The more scouts we have out there exploring, the more of the blighters that'll crawl out. Let the formers plant forests, and let those eliminate the fungus. Problem solved.

And what do you intend to do when our scouts run across multiple worms? We'll lose them, and have to build more, as well as having to waste time moving them back into position.

Stop being afraid of a little micromanagement GT. All it means is that we just have to switch back to planned for one year at the right time. Geez.

Let me explain. The Growth & Industry bonuses work on the same system. They make things less expensive. However, they don't go off the *current* cost remaining until completion. They go off the original total cost.

ie.
Say we have something that takes 10 turns to build, and we start producing it at all bases. This is just under Free Market BTW.

After 8 turns, we switch to Planned. Now, the original cost of construction goes down to 9 turns. But we've already finished 8 turns, meaning that there's only 1 turns left to complete.

We complete next turn, and go back to FM.

Like I said, it's the same with growth, only its Nuts instead of Minerals. We had 10 turns to growth, switch to Planned on the 8th, and grow on the 9th.

In the meanwhile, our cash works for us, and while our exploration slows slightly, it won't be too hampered, with our borders increasing with every new base

I know how the industry bonuses work. I'm talking about Drone problems, not 'a little extra micromanagement'. If we switch now, NA would lose at least one productive citizen, and quite a bit of growth as well.

*Yawn* You don't play SP or MP much, do you? The AI have less of an Industry Bonus than usual, meaning they have slower production. AI cities never use Crawlers, and so are often at maximum somewhere around 6~7 minerals at this stage of the game. We'd be playing catchup, yes, but when 3 of their turns of mineral production equals 1 of yours, even though they started with a lead, it's easy to grab multipule projects so long as you have multipule cities with these mineral levels and working on projects. (EG - A Head to Head game I'm playing against Flubber ATM. I've grabbed the WP, VW and EG, and will get the PTS within 2 turns. Flubber has no projects whatsoever. The 5 AI factions have 2 projects split between them, neither projects I especially needed or was aiming for.) If the game had been on Thinker like this one is, I would've grabbed the HGP as well.

I've seen AI bases with MUCH higher prducton than that, when they get industry booms. You may be right that they're building slower than us... or you may be wrong. Like I said, I don't want to have to find out.

COMPLETLY the wrong way to go about things! If you have big bases under FM, then you can devote citizens to work as Doctors, increasing the Psych and leaving you with no drones. You produce the facilities at the same rate as you would in a smaller base, but your pop is already in place, and means you can take advantage of facilities upon the moment of completing them. Oh, and it's great for elections too.

Using Doctors in big bases means that until you can actually have elections, the citizens are just more mouths to feed. I'm arguing that we should build some Rec Commons in the larger bases, THEN go Fm and use Psyche, as well as using GAs. If we use Wealth as well, we'll be able to bring in masses of cash (as you are advocating yourself).

[Pandemoniak]

We are the only legitimate faction on Planet ! If Morgan wish to contest us the UN given rights to live as we wish on Planet, so be it. I personnaly wont be scared by a TV mogul.

[GeneralTacticus]

We're arguing practicalities here, Pande, not wishful thinking. The reality is that we have to live with Morgan, at least for the time being, so we might as well make the best of it.

[GeneralTacticus]

btw, Morgan isn't a TV mogul.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by TKG
i agree

once we get automation though, i'd like to initiate wealth, which would be just as good as FM if we could get some GAs going (very possible with our talent bonus)

It's only +1 EC, not +2. Not enough to give +1 Energy per square. It only gives +1 Energy per *base* square. It's hardly worth it unless you're under FM (Under which you're at +3 EC, giving +1 Energy per square and +1 Commerce (Even more trade with Morgan!), unless you *really* need the +1 Industry.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
And what do you intend to do when our scouts run across multiple worms? We'll lose them, and have to build more, as well as having to waste time moving them back into position.

I am going to say this once,. Hopefully I'll never have to say it again.

STOP ****ING OVERSTATING THE PROBLEM!

Stacked worms. Oh my, what a problem. All worms in a stack die when you kill one. Joy. And guess what, the closer to bases you are, the less likely worms turn up in pops. Ever think of that? If we explore within our borders, only popping pods within them and reasonably close to a base, we will never have this problem. Oh yes, and we don't have enough mins at any base (And won't for a long time at the rate people are going. Is the Crawler issue sorted yet?) to cause any eco damage. In any case, pops are *good*, because they raise your clean mineral limit. It's far better in the early game to "harm planet" as much as possible to raise Planet's immune system up to scratch rather than leave it alone and find it screaming at you later, when you're forced to boost production because a lousy 15 mins isn't enough (And of course, you forgot to pop before your first Tree Farm, meaning you can't raise free min levels with facilities.).

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I know how the industry bonuses work. I'm talking about Drone problems, not 'a little extra micromanagement'. If we switch now, NA would lose at least one productive citizen, and quite a bit of growth as well.

Hellooooooooo. Did I say change immediatly? Nooooooo. I said change as soon as the scouts are recalled. Read my posts for once moron.
And if anything, we'd gain growth. Specialists take 1 Nut to feed, workers 2. We'd be under Demo under my current scheme of things anyway, and we can use the switch to gain Planned bonuses as needed. The bases would get to size even quicker, and be even more productive than they'd be under your simplictic Planned only system.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I've seen AI bases with MUCH higher prducton than that, when they get industry booms. You may be right that they're building slower than us... or you may be wrong. Like I said, I don't want to have to find out.

Then we can take the bloody projects from them later, when warmongering Pan gets his way. But it wouldn't come to that. You're overstating yet another problem. So what if you've seen AI bases with higher production than that before? They can't have them at this stage of the game, and you know it. They're also getting less of an Industry bonus due to our difficulty level.
Seriously, did you forget that even we don't have EE yet? The AI doesn't use crawlers either, like I pointed out before. And they don't build much forests or mines. They don't have enough production to beat out a base pumping out 20+ Mins a turn thanks to Crawlers. All this time we've wasted building the Projects early could've been spent on facilities and prototypes.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Using Doctors in big bases means that until you can actually have elections, the citizens are just more mouths to feed. I'm arguing that we should build some Rec Commons in the larger bases, THEN go Fm and use Psyche, as well as using GAs. If we use Wealth as well, we'll be able to bring in masses of cash (as you are advocating yourself).

So what if they're more mouths to feed? Specs. only need 1 Nut each, and having more citizens makes the base less vulnerable to the worm rape you're so fearful of. Heck, with more pop, the Psych facilities could be destroyed by worms and we'd be fine thanks to the extra Doctors in place.
Oh yes, and you obviously know little of the SMAC bugs if you don't know the famous Golden Age bug. It doesn't give the growth bonus under SMAC, though it was fixed for SMAX.

Go DEMO NOW! Go to Wealth ASAWGI. Go FM ASAP, ie. When the attached scouts come back within our borders. Use those scouts as the escorts/garrisons of any bases we build from this point onwards until we run out of them. Use the Demo switch (Out of Demo the turn before the base is planted. Stay like that for the full next turn. Switch back the turn after) to retain the free minerals. Use the Planned switch as needed as a cheap rush for pop and production. All this is provided for by the massive cashflow from FM + The Pact with Morgan.

[AdamTG02]

Archaic: You're right that in SMAC Golden Age doesn't give a growth bonus. However, it does give an energy bonus, the equivalent of +1 Econ. That's what we're discussing -- whether to go FM or Wealth + GA, which essentially amount to the same Econ score.

I'm glad to hear you've changed your position on Democracy. It's heartening to know that, even if I lose the election, we'll have a Director of Social Engineering who favors Democracy as soon as possible.

[Main_Brain]

Morgan wont War us...
thats plain ridiculous even if he would try he's not ready yet to field many Troops (He is FM?) and despite of that he doesnt lik ePlanned but he doesnt hate it like Green...
I wouldn't worry about that.
FM now is not too suitful IMO, we still need to scout much territory and ProbeScouts in a Worminfested World I dunno..
DM at this Point in Game makes Things difficult we'd wait which SPs we grab, and eventually build NN's beforeHand.