DoSE Choices: What should we switch to (if anything)?

[MrWhereItsAt]

YIKES! The last chat saw us get both Democracy (EthCalc) and Planned (PlaNets) choices, and at some point we got Free Market (IndEco) and there was some discussion to changing social priorities when we had the option. Now we have three to decide on.

Analysis:

We are currently at -1 Efficiency, which affects both our tech accumulation rate and our energy generation, but not by much with the size bases we have.

Planned Economy
This will give us +2 Growth, +1 Industry and -2 Efficiency

New stats: -3 Efficiency, +2 Growth, +1 Industry

Efficiency is harder to quantify, but our bases will grow 20% faster and we will build 10% faster.

With the current state of NA, this amounts to building the HGP in 7 turns, not 8 (a 20 mineral saving), and 20% fewer nuts required for bases to grow.

However the efficiency hit will cause slower research and energy accumulation. If anyone could accurately quantify these effects I would appreciate it.

Democracy

This gives +2 Efficiency, +2 Growth and -2 Support

We would then reach +1 Efficiency, +2 Growth and -2 Support.

Our efficiency actually improves here, meaning some small increase in research rate and energy accumulation. The Growth increases also, exactly the same as for the Planned Economy. The -2 Support means only 1 unit is supported free per base, and there are no free minerals for bases (whatever that means ). Each of our bases except Mysidia would lose an extra mineral in support.

Free Market

This gives us +2 Economy, -3 Planet and -5 Police

We'd be at -1 Efficiency, +2 Economy, -3 Planet, -5 Police.

This is a more dramatic change than either Democracy or Planned Economics. The +2 Economy gives us an extra unit of energy in EVERY worked square. THis means an extra 26 energy, and assuming no loss to waste, we get an extra 13 creds and 13 towards research. This would take our net income from +9pt to +22pt and would cut down on the time to research - for the current research that has just been traded for, we would have researched it in 2 turns with Free market as opposed to the 4 turns without. However the drawbacks are extreme also. The -3 Planet will mean more problems with worms, and less population and industry is allowed before we start to disrupt the environs. The -5 Police, however, will mean +2 drones for each military unit away from home, which means Antioch, New Suez, TBIBTU and NA straight away go into riot mode and it would require many Doctors to keep them happy. This would effectively kill our exploration aspirations.

Both Planned and Democracy
With both of these choices we would reach

+4 Growth, +1 Industry, -1 Efficiency (same as now), -2 Support

The effects of this would be to dramatically speed base growth, by 40%. Mineral costs would be down by 10%, but we would lose one free mineral per base with more than one unit to support.

Both Democracy and Free Market

We reach

+1 Efficiency, +2 Growth and -2 Support, +2 Economy, 3 Planet, -5 Police.

This is basically the same as both choices individually considered, at the same time. The increased Efficiency will not aid us very much at the moment, with our low spatial extent and populations. Good Growth will allow the +1 energy/square to pay off more quickly, but once again this is tempered by the instant drone riots.

5 Day poll, as this is quite an important issue, and I'd like some discussion here.

Archaic, as candidate for the next DoSE position, I would very much like your thoughts here, and I think the rest would like to hear your views too.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Although Free Market would help considerably, the disorder in my mind will make it less helpful than keeping away from Free Marketdom for a time. I believe Planned and Democracy would be of the greatest benefit to us rught now, as we could up the population considerably with a 40% reduced nut storage necessity, and the Industry bonus would help us get Rec Commons up so that we CAN get to Free Market.

Other thoughts, suggestions..?

[Archaic]

I'll just make a quick post now. If necessary I'll give a more complete assessment later tonight when I'm back on the cable connection instead of this awful 56k.

Planned:
You forgot to state the problem of B Drones being increased due to the ineffeciency. With our expanding number of colonies, this will quickly become a problem under the "Thinker" level we're at, and could easily cause more drones than switching to FM.

Democracy:
No free minerals means that when the base is established, it won't get its 10 free minerals. This is a *VERY* significant disadvantage. It will take far longer to get our initial garrisons, formers and facilities in place.

Free Market:
You overstate the Planet Problem. None of our bases make enough minerals to cause any ego damage, or will they be able to for quite some time yet. Furthermore, the Planet penalty doesn't apply to Psi Attack, only to Psy Defence. And *that* can be fixed with Trance, which I assume will be added to all Garrisons as standard once we have the tech. (There's bonuses for defending bases anyway)
Also, the problems with exploration can easily be solved by exploring the areas within our own territories before we venture further afield. With Morgan likely to give us his maps soon, we don't need to explore as much, and when we do, it'll be likely our borders will have expanded anyway.

Demo & Planned
Good except that the 10 mineral loss at this point is just too much of a burden to handle. We *need* those minerals for our initial expansion phase. Once it's complete though, this is perfect for the Demo + Planned + CC Pop Boom

Demo & Free Market
Again, not an optimal solution, thanks to the 10 mineral loss. I see this as being our long term position for the near future, but not quite yet.
To be honest, I see us as being in Free Market / Wealth before Demo comes into play at all.

[Mr. President]

I'm gonna say just Democracy for now, since the riot situation is of much concern to me.

Of course, increased rights for citizens mean a lot more work for the judiciary.

[Archaic]

Oh yes, I almost forgot. Going in Planned Economics will piss Morgan off with us, and possibily get us into a war we cannot yet afford. Free Market will likely get us as being Pact Brothers with him, gaining us his maps, infiltration data, potential free comlinks, research, and great trade windfalls, substantially increasing our cashflow position, which would allow us to rush various facilities (No use having cash if you don't spend it!). That has the run on effect of making FM make itself easier to manage, as we'd be able to rush the various Rec. Commons and CC's that we'd need to build anyway, giving us even quicker production than under planned. Why would we need 10% less minerals to build things when we can already pay for 20% of minerals with energy?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Some great points, Archaic, and I admit perhaps my post DOES overstate the Planet problems too much - they are rather distant right now.

But nonetheless, FM will mean instant riots in many bases, including those buildins SPs. Unless we reallocate those distant scouts that are from New Suez and NA, these bases will not be building their SPs for a looooong time due to the necessary worker reallocations. We don't have the energy for psych investment either, so unless we change to FM, get a Morganite pact and then change back almost straight away, those SPs may be lost to us completely, or those bases will be useless for a long time. With our (hopefully still ongoing) plan of including a Scout with each CP, the no free 10 minerals, although annoying, is not fatal.

The inefficiency causing extra drones - can anyone give any more specifics on this? It's one of those things that isn't very well documented, or, if it is, I have had no luck in finding it. Is it more due to population, or number of bases, or distance from HQ, or some combination? And if we can handle it up to a certain pop, couldn't we do this and use the extra Industry to get Rec Commons online faster, thus helping negate this problem?

Great points so far, I really want as much discussion on this as possible - this shouldn't happen too often, and we want decisions to be well-informed and know.

[Archaic]

I don't say we should go to FM right away BTW. Just ASAP. Ie. As soon as we can recall those scouts to within our borders. Us building SP's at this point was pretty stupid to begin with (Shouldn't have started until those bases were pumping our ~15 to 20 minerals a turn, thanks to crawlers on Mine/Rocky/Road and Forest.), but there's nothing wrong with changing the allocations slightly. It's only 1 Doctor at most (No scouts outside borders = No extra drones), and in many cases our free talent will cover it.

And trust me, the no free minerals is a pain in the ass. With free minerals, we pop the base, and yey, next turn we have the garrison. Frankly, I say stuff the extra scout with the CP. It wastes time, and under Demo will cripple the production of the base making them due to extra support.

Simplest explanation - The more inefficiency you have, the less bases you're allowed before B Drones crop up, and the more B Drones that do crop up when it happens. Got nothing to do with pop or distance from HQ. Under current conditions, we're already about there. Going straight to planned would put extra drones in about a third to half of our bases.

And like I said, the FM would be better at getting the faster builds than Planned would be. If necessary, remember that FM would likely end up giving us enough each turn to switch to any other SE we needed. A quick switch to Planned and back over the course of 2 turns (ie. 1st turn to it, 2nd turn back) will achieve the same thing as staying in Planned due to have the Industry bonuses are figured out.

[GeneralTacticus]

Furthermore, the Planet penalty doesn't apply to Psi Attack, only to Psy Defence.

You have it back to front. It affects Psi Attack, not Psi defense.

[Darkness' Edge]

I don't claim to be an expert on Social Engineering, so I've listened to the points above, and I'm swayed enough by Archaic's reasoning.

[Archaic]

I thought I might have. Oh well, that's even better then. Under FM, if anything, we'd be defending more than attacking anyway.

[GeneralTacticus]

Free Market:
You overstate the Planet Problem. None of our bases make enough minerals to cause any ego damage, or will they be able to for quite some time yet. Furthermore, the Planet penalty doesn't apply to Psi Attack, only to Psy Defence. And *that* can be fixed with Trance, which I assume will be added to all Garrisons as standard once we have the tech. (There's bonuses for defending bases anyway)
Also, the problems with exploration can easily be solved by exploring the areas within our own territories before we venture further afield. With Morgan likely to give us his maps soon, we don't need to explore as much, and when we do, it'll be likely our borders will have expanded anyway.

You seem to be neglecting the fact that we lose the ability to contorl our Drones using police; and even if Morgan does give us his maps, we'll still need to explore northwards.

As soon as we can recall those scouts to within our borders. Us building SP's at this point was pretty stupid to begin with (Shouldn't have started until those bases were pumping our ~15 to 20 minerals a turn, thanks to crawlers on Mine/Rocky/Road and Forest.),

Would you rather let the AI beat us to it?

[GeneralTacticus]

I thought I might have. Oh well, that's even better then. Under FM, if anything, we'd be defending more than attacking anyway.

But then it means we have no way to get a clear edge over the worms. If we defend, they get the bonus; if we attack, we lose most of it.

[Archaic]

I'm not neglecting the fact at all. It's irrelevant. We'll be able to get facilities in place in time in most locations due to the extra talent, and in all places, we'd be able to rush build the facilities sooner than we'd have them under Planned anyway.

*Laughs* The AI wouldn't beat us to it. You overestimate they're ability to build these things, and underestimate the power of crawlers. We're not even on Transcend, so our opponents would take even longer than the MP players here would be used to.

[GeneralTacticus]

*SIGH* We want through all of this once when you were voted down in the last election. Do you want to go through it all again?

I'm not neglecting the fact at all. It's irrelevant. We'll be able to get facilities in place in time in most locations due to the extra talent, and in all places, we'd be able to rush build the facilities sooner than we'd have them under Planned anyway.

True, perhaps, but we DO want to get those SPs done with a minimum of trouble. Switch afterwards.

*Laughs* The AI wouldn't beat us to it. You overestimate they're ability to build these things, and underestimate the power of crawlers. We're not even on Transcend, so our opponents would take even longer than the MP players here would be used to.

Perhaps I am. Do you want to find out?

[MrWhereItsAt]

It is certain that the SE choice we want to stick with will dictate the immediate strategy we will have for a while.

Free Market means no more exploring for some time, and we must be prepared to defend against the worms with more than what we might rely on otherwise. It will mean we need to build more infrasstructure in our bases earlier on, but will also give us the means to do so, and hopefully a fair amount more besides. The higher population we have the better for the energy bonus, so this points towards the Morgan favourite. fewer bases, but all of them are BIG.

Planned means we could expand faster and keep exploring, but with the Efficiency problems at some point we would need to change for sure, or build lotsa Childrens' Creches whenever we can.

Democracy means that our bases will grow faster and Efficiency is not a problem, but the no free minerals at the base's start is a drawback. How much of a drawback is still something I am not convinced of, however.

We could always change out of Democracy whenever we are about to build a new base, and then back again when they get their free minerals.

Perhaps that's not a completely idiotic idea - it's what? - 32 energy per new base then (16 for each of 2 changes). Especially if we had Free Market and a Pact with the Morganites at the same time, we should be able to afford this......

What do you all think? Am I just really tired and sick of studying, or do I actually have an idea...?