Constitutional Committee

[Pandemoniak]

Today at 11:00 pm, AdamTG has been received at the CCCP's office onboard the Unity, in the wing occupied by the Peacekeepers faction. Pandemoniak and Adam were assisted by Tassadar, famous UNN Chief Editor and Second member to date of the CCCP.
adamtg: Greetings, Tassadar.
tassadar5000: Greetings, Adam.
pandemoniak81: Welcome Adam, welcome Comrade Tassadar. Please take one of these comfortable armchairs, we're not rich here at the CCCP, but we take care of our guests"
adamtg then told tassadar: Pandemoniak and I have been discussing what we'd like to lay before the Constitutional Committee, and we seem to agree on a few issues.
pandemoniak81:"Indeed, we were saying we shouldnt merge the directorates of Base Production and Industry and Economy, but give Bas Production the task to choose the tiles to harvest and the things to built, while the Directorate of Industry and Energy would decide of the allocation of energy and the rushes for building", he replied, while pouring himself an imported Talisker from earth, a gift from Lady Deirdre Skye before what is now called the "faction separations".

tassadar5000: Ok, and what is your reasoning for this?
pandemoniak81: it makes the DoIE not a big directorate, but even back on Earth, there's always been some small ministers...
adamtg: This would allow the candidates who are running for either job on the assumption that thy are seperate keep in the running without having to run against one another.
pandemoniak81: else the DoBP gets to much powers and tasks
adamtg: Also, it makes more sense to separate base production from energy rates.
adamtg: My personal preference is to put all energy rates into Social Engineering, but on the recent discussion onboard, there doesn't seem to be as much support for that.
tassadar5000: I would support that.
pandemoniak81: I dont really care.
tassadar5000: Because....Why split the power up for something obviously very relevant? It makes things inefficent.
adamtg: The problem is that the ACE supports two seperate candidates for Industry & Energy and Base Production. If we proposed a merger I'm afraid it might be seen as political. But I don't want the Constitution to be divisive along party lines. And I'd agree with you there if it were up to me, Tassadar.
pandemoniak81: Yes, indeed, parties are made to allow people with same conceptions to talk together in an efficient, organized way.
adamtg: Hmm, but my goal is to prevent that from happening in the limited amount of time we will spend on Constitutional drafting.
tassadar5000: But the P4 is shifting candidates simply to counter CCCP candidates. Its quite obvious
pandemoniak81: We must make a constitution so that people and not parties will lead the game. So we must give a very importance to polls.
adamtg: true
pandemoniak81: yes, its true, but they cant build a campaign just by "NO CCCP CANDIDATES - VOTE FOR ME"
adamtg: In my mind, the most important function of a party is not to sponsor candidates but to foster debate between members with similar interests and marshal support on

pandemoniak81: What is as well discussed for the constitution ?
adamtg: We've covered energy rates and the Director of Industry and Energy issue.
pandemoniak81:Yep, whats next to be discussed ?
adamtg: If so, then the only remaining issue is impeachment. Some favor keeping it out of the Constitution for simplicity. Others want it in so that we can deal with a bad Director or Commissioner if necessary.
pandemoniak81: Well... it must be part of the constitution
adamtg: *listens*

tassadar5000: I think that any citizen should be able to attempt to impeach someone (with sufficent proof that they ened to be impeached, not just "impeach him!!!") and if theres a 3/4 vote (75%) then the person is impeached
pandemoniak81: yeah, tass, how do we define "sufficient proof" ?
adamtg: Hmm. My thought was that it would need to be a Director and a 2/3 vote would be necessary. If we decided it was warranted for impeachment to be in the Constitution.
tassadar5000: Sufficent proof would be if the citizens said "yeah, that is deserving of impeachment". But any "Lets impeach Pand" thing withotu ANY proof should be automatically deemed invalid
pandemoniak81: But the thing is that we'd need a judiciar branch
tassadar5000: or we could set up a court...
adamtg: In the United States the Senate decides impeachment. (In France it was a court if I remember correctly; I am not sure of that, but I'll stick to what I know. Tomorrow on Planet, the closest thing to a Senate is the people.
pandemoniak81: In france, it's a court. And I also think we'd need a court. That would moderate ourselves in a good way.
adamtg: I would rather not set up a court this early in. Let's try to make this work without extra bureaucracy, and if it's necessary, we can institute it later.
tassadar5000: One problem remains with that : party politics. Say a ton of people from various parties and alliegences get up there. well.....
adamtg: Right.
adamtg: Call me a supporter of the back-on-earth American radical democrat, but I'd rather not have a small body deciding impeachments -- the smaller the body, the easier it is to fill it with your supporters.
tassadar5000: correct
pandemoniak81: the court must be independant of politic forces, like it was in France, unlike in the USA, so if someone joins the court, he has to leave his party, and swear to be an honnest judge, etc...

adamtg: Thus we'd have to have some sort of check on that -- what you say is a possible check, but can we trust it?
pandemoniak81: well, we have to trust people, after all, its a new beginning on Planet, not a "do-your-own-stalinist-nixonist-conspiracy" game
tassadar5000: Call me an evil chinese maoist, but if we trust people blindly it'll turn into a "do your own stalinist conspiracy" game
pandemoniak81: well, we just cant avoid that... or maybe we could ask our defunt leader's assistant MarkosG to be or to set up a Court ?
tassadar5000: we could. but....I still say the PEOPLE should be the Senate/Court
adamtg: Hmm. Pandemoniak, what I propose is to listen to other committee members on the issue. If we can't come to a clear agreement now, we might be able to with input from others.
pandemoniak81: ok ok, but not that I disagree with the people being the court, because the court must be independant of politic forces. Anyway, whats next ?
adamtg: That's about all. Throughout, I've been assuming that we will want to amend the constitution.
pandemoniak81f course... I must leave you now, comrades, since I am still working on my next book, W(R)ONG : history of Marx's understanding"...

[AdamTG02]

There will be no draft tonight, as on perusing the earlier working draft it appears that there are many more unreolved issues than I had suspected. The three of us who met today did decide to modify the draft posted by DBTS in this thread, with the above clarifications.

Hopefully, within a couple of days the full Committee will be able to meet, and a finished draft can be prepared to present to the people for adoption and/or amendment.

[DeathByTheSword]

well i donnu wheb you guys all can...but i am today avaible from (GMT) 11.00 until 16.30 / 20.30 until 22.00 and ever other day from 18.00 until 22.00

(i hope i got the right times but i will be in dalnet most of the day today so pleaze look me up you guys )

[Maniac]

I hope it's not too late to tell my personal opinion. I would transfer control of supply crawlers over to the D of Energy and Industry. That will even the importance of the BP and E&I directorate.

Is there also any discussion about poll rules. Is that needed? In any case I think a poll time limit should be put into the constitution.

[Mr. President]

For impeachment, perhaps we should attempt to staff the court with known non-partisans or non-party-affiliated citizens.

I would also suggest that Industry and Energy advise the Commissioner on terraforming issues and keep his eyes open for resources.

[DeathByTheSword]

i think that for impeachment you will have the people and he has to be impeachmend with a 66% yea vote.

an seperate court will not be necessery i think because this isnt that big as the DGCiv3 thingy

[Maniac]

Originally posted by AdamTG02
The PM is now going out to DBTS, and if you like I'll forward it to you as well.

Please do!

[Darkness' Edge]

I'd much prefer a 66% vote over a seperate court.

As far as any other constitutional discussions go...thanks for inviting me.

but alas, I couldn't make the chat...evil timezones. maybe next time.

[DeathByTheSword]

about the jobdiscriptions i do not think we have to put in to much of:

has to first talk with or can advice this or that.

I think we have to keep it plain and simple and separate from eachother but i am on a 'random' (?) DalNet #Smacdem right now so please join if some one wants to talk about that

[Mr. President]

Er, forget what I said regarding the Industry and Energy post since we seem to have a separate Colonization and Terraforming post. Sorry.

[AdamTG02]

The following is the draft Constitution we are working from, with DBTS's comments in [brackets] and my comments in {brackets}.

UN CONSTITUTION [*]= still in discussion
This is the constitution that we, the new people of the United Nations Peacekeepers, have decided upon. In it, we have declared that we shall form a government of the people, a Democracy, in which we shall choose who leads us. We shall gather the smartest and most wise people of our faction together, and they shall erect polls, and they will do their bidding. This is government by the people for the people. {Edited slightly for readability}

ARTICLE I: Commission Stucture

Executive Branch

This is the administrative section of our faction. The Executive branch is made up of the Commissioner and the Alpha Talent. These two are required to abide by the suggestions of the directors, who represent the will of the people.

Commissioner:
The Commissioner shall physically play the game after referring to his directors, and generally checking with the people.

Once the turns are played the Commissioner shall send out the save game file via the apolyton internetsite in a special save thread

[The Comissioner is required to host at least one turnchat a week.]

{The Commissioner will be elected monthly by the people of the UN Peacekeepers. In the event of a tie, a runoff election shall be held between the two candidates with the most votes.}

Alpha-Talent:
The right hand of the Commissioner; he may assist the Commissioner in any way currently needed (holding polls, consulting directors, distributing the save files, etc). In the event the Commissioner is unable to play his turn, the Alpha-Talent shall play the turn instead. {In the event of the Commissioner's resignation, the Alpha Talent will become Commissioner. The Alpha Talent may also stand in for any Director who is unavailable.

The Alpha Talent shall be the candidate for Commissioner who receives the second-highest number of votes. In the event of a tie for second place, a runoff election shall be held for Alpha Talent.}

Director Branch

Directors make up the core of our Commission. Directors are experts in the area they oversee, and they have the task of informing and advising the people on our situation. They are required to conduct polls in order to interrupt the people’s will. They are then to carry out that will, by giving their direction to the Commissioner.

All Directors are allowed to advise and consult with each other. They are also granted the right to petition for changes or actions from other Directors that may be critical to the their department. Ultimately, however, it is the Director in charge of his/her section that has the final say in how things are handled.

{The Directors shall be elected monthly at the same time as the Commissioner. If a Director should resign, a special election shall be held to fill the remainder of that Director's term, and until the election can be completed the Alpha Talent shall be interim Director.}

Director of Research:
The Director of Research is the faction’s greatest mind in the area of technological advancement. It is his/her responsibility to advise and to poll the people on which techs the people wish to research.
The Director of Research is acknowledged the right to advise the Foreign Affairs Director on matters of Tech trading.
[if blind research is chosen this position will not be needed and everything science related will be split up to D of F and D of SE]

Director of Peacekeeping Operations:
This officer is the principal military advisor to the Commissioner and the people, and prepares military plans and reviews overall military requirements for our nation. He/She also has the responsibility to assess threats to the security of the faction and keep everyone up to date on these threats.

The Director of PO is granted the power to manage the engineering of new military units.
The Director of PO is granted the power to set up the army's strategy. He tells what troops to move where, and which battles to engage.
The Military Advisor is granted the right to take an active part in negotiations of Blood Truce, Treaty of Friendship and Brothers Pact. (Note: The Foreign Affairs Director calls the shots, but the Director of PO must have his voice heard).

Director of Foreign Affairs:
This Director is the commission’s chief advisor on foreign affairs and is responsible for carrying out foreign policy. He/She is given the power to enter into diplomatic negotiations with other factions, however should refrain from making commitments until approved by the people.

The Foreign Affairs Director is granted the power to make/accept peace, make/accept Treaty of Friendship, and make/accept Brothers Pact. The exchange of all items falls on the broad shoulders of the Foreign Affairs Minister. It is strongly recommended that the Foreign Affairs Minister consult the appropriate ministers when gifts or exchanges are involved. This Director is required to consult the Director of Energy and Industry when energy credits is part of a deal. This Director is required to consult the Director of Research when technology is part of a deal. This Director is required to consult the Director of Exploration and Intelligence when the map is part of a deal. This Director is required to consult the Director of peacekeeping Operations when peace/war is part of a deal

{Do we want to omit the "required to consult" clauses for simplicity, or just include in those ministers' descriptions that they have the right to advise the foreign minister?}

Director of Industry and Energy:
[The Director of I and E is truly the architect of our faction, for he is responsible for making the foundation of our faction, bases, as prosperous and successful as possible. The Director of Industry manages building queues and citizens, but may also request the Expansion and Terraforming Director to improve city tiles when needed.]
This Director is responsible of the treasury of the faction.

[The Director of I and E is required to cooperate with all the others Directors in case they require something build in the bases.]

{It has been discussed to split this up into a Director of Base Production, to manage workers and production queues, and a Director of Industry and Energy, to manage the treasury and recommend energy- and mineral-increasing facilities to Base Production. Giving Base Production control of supply crawlers has also been discussed.}

Director of Expansion and Terraforming:
The Director of E and T posses the important job of placing our glorious new bases.
The Director of E and T is in charge of all the formers and crawlers of our faction.
[The Director of E and T must cooperate with the Director of I and E for the placement of crawlers.]

Director of Social Engineering:
This Director is reponsible of the way of life of our people. He is in charge of preventing riots in our bases.

The Director of SE is granted the power to make polls on the Social Engineering choice and to report the results to the Commissioner.

[The Director of SE is required to consult the Director of Research and the Director of Energy and Industry to agree on the psych rate. **]
[The Director of Research is required to consult the Director of Energy and Industry and the Director of Social Engineering to agree on the science rate.**]
[The Director of I and E is required to consult the Director of Research and the Director of SE to agree on the energy rate.**] [**=do we want this together or dont we?]

{As I see it, there are two options -- to have three ministers agree on the energy rates, or to have one minister -- either Social Engineering or Industry & Energy, if that is seperated from Base Production -- decide them.}

Director of Exploration and Intelligence:
This Director is in charge of Planet's exploration.

The Director of Exploration and Intelligence is in charge of all the scouts (1/1/1), rovers (1/1/2) and foils (1/1/3) used for exploration purposes. But theses units will return under the Director of PO rule as soon as they are garisonned or used for offensive against another faction. The Director of Exploration and Intelligence is in charge of probe teams and missions. The Director of E and I should cooperate with the Director of Peacekeeping Operations to agree on probe teams missions goals. The Director of E and I has the power to ask the DPO for anyother unit to explore with (i.e needlejets or an idle unit near black terrain).

{Do we want to just allow E & I control of whatever units are requested for exploration? After all, scout patrols are a necessary part of the defense force early on.}


[Governers:

They take control over X number of bases and manage everything from worker allocation to building orders.]

[EXTRA SERVICES
Chief Librarian:
The Chief Librarian logs everything that happens to our faction, however, he should do so without biased to political leaders or parties. The Chief Librarian is not allowed to vote in governmental polls.

The Chief Librarian may request detailed information on certain things from the Commissioner.

Reporters (Newspapers):
These independent agents are bestowed the great privilege of keeping the people informed on the happenings of the game and commission, as well as the general environment around us. They should strive to obtain accurate facts, and state things how they are, free of political involvement. The reporters act as a window into the game, serve as a commission watchdog, and are general tool of the people.
]

ARTICLE II: Commission Policy

Amendments:
Amendments to this Constitution can be submitted by any member of our faction. An amendment is passed and made official by a 2/3 or greater vote on the amendment's inclusion.

Length of Office Terms:
All office terms shall last one month. A member can run for a different office at the end of his term, but he cannot change offices during it. If a member is elected three times into the same office, that member must run for a different office in his fourth term, or not run at all.

Impeachment and Resignations:
All members of our great faction are recognized the right to bring foreword the issue of impeachment of any government official at any time. Resignations will be handled the same as any impeachments.

A poll will be posted which will expire in no less than 5 days. There are to be three poll options, yea, nay, and abstain. Upon the expiration of the poll, if 2/3 of the people who voted deem impeachment necessary, then the official shall be immediately removed from office. The Commissioner shall establish an emergency member to take his/her place until a new election can be held, and a new person voted into office to finish the term.

ARTICLE III: Polling

General Rules:
Polls may be conducted in an ‘unofficial’ format to simply gain information, but CANNOT be used in any official decisions. All of the following rules are regarding ‘official’ polls, which may or may not be used as official results for the actual game. Any unofficial polls must be labeled as so within the first post.

Each official poll should have its rules laid out, as well as a form of expiration, either when a certain event takes place (i.e. ‘when the game starts’), or a time limit (i.e. ‘5 days’). This is to prevent the occurrence of an incident such as if doesn’t include an expiration, and says 3 weeks later "well this poll said this" kind of thing, and use its results officially. Each poll should lay out the potential options, as well as the question in a clear format. The required inclusions for the post are: an expiration date/event, a fair, clear and concise, unbaised question which addressed the issue of the poll, and a general description of what your poll entails. Instead of a description if you wish to post a link to another thread to give a description, that is acceptable as well.

Those who wish to put up a poll are strongly recommended to first discuss the issue in another thread, and bounce around possible options for voting. If someone feels that a poll could have been better made as a 'grouping' poll, or a 'yes/no' poll, then it may be deemed invalid.

Length of a Poll:
Each poll must be open for a minimum of 3 days. This allows enough time for the majority of our members to see the poll and vote in it. Any poll open or taking results in less than 3 days is invalid. This includes 'spur of the moment' polls, that say something like 'This poll ends when turn 5 starts', but turn 5 starts in 2 days instead of 3 - this poll would be invalid.

Fairness and Neutrality:
The first post in a poll thread should be completely neutral. No options are to be suggested for voting, just what each option entails in an unbiased format. The same is true for the voting options. While poking fun at an option will probably be acceptable, if someone thinks that it interferes with a voter’s decision, then they may deem it invalid. If you show bias in your options, then it is no longer fair. So be warned, if your poll is a landslide one way and should win but someone feels that the options you presented are unfair and calls for a validity vote, if it’s deemed invalid your poll is useless.

Poll Format:
Each official poll MUST include either a ‘yes/no’ format, or a ‘group’ format, where similar options are grouped together, where the winning option within the group with the most votes is the official winner. The only time these formats do not have to be followed is in true multiple-choice polls, i.e. ‘Which Civilization should we be: Egyptians, Persians. Etc.’ In these cases, a simple ‘yes/no’ or ‘grouping’ poll does not suffice.

Repolling:
If someone wants to conduct a repoll, then it must be created at least 3 weeks following the initial poll. If a repoll is created before 3 weeks has passed, then that poll is immediately invalid. If a poll is an alternative poll, offering alternatives to decisions made in a previous poll, then it also must be conducted at least 3 weeks following the first poll, or be immediately deemed invalid. Any poll that's general purpose is the same or similar as another poll will be considered a repoll.

Length of Validity:
Poll results are valid until either a repoll is conducted, or an optional expiration on the results of the poll is included (either from an event or a time limit). In any other case, the results of a poll are official until the end of the game.

Invalidity of a Poll:
If these rules are not abided by, anyone may consider the poll invalid. If someone believes a poll to not be following these rules and declares it invalid, then a vote may be conducted among the elected officials listed above to be either ‘valid’ or ‘invalid’. If the poll is deemed invalid, then its results cannot be used for any official purposes regarding the game. A poll deemed invalid cannot be voted on again unless it abides by the rules regarding a repoll.

ARTICLE IV: Declaration of Rights

Clause 1: No person shall be denied the right to become a emeber of the UNP.

Clause 2: No member shall ever be denied the right to vote in any poll.

Clause 3: Free speech shall not be abridged unless it violates Apolyton rules.

Clause 4: No one shall be banned permanently from participating in the democracy game, excluding those who are permanently banned from apolyton. Note that people may still be banned for any amount of time, as long as it is not permanent.

Clause 5: The right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied.

Clause 6: No member may be punished in any way without due process of law.

Clause 7: The commission may not knowingly hide information or give false information to the people.

[Zakharov VII]

I assume the right for citizens to make unofficial polls is included under free speech?

I still don't like the "Polls may be conducted in an ‘unofficial’ format to simply gain information, but CANNOT be used in any official decisions" sentence. It sounds like if I, for example, were to conduct an unofficial poll then the Directors would have to decide without being influenced by it. That doesn't seem right.

Then (of course ) just a few nitpick things (can't have typos in our Constitution!). The Director of PO is referred to as the "Military Advisor" in its section, and in Clause 1 of Article IV "member" is missing an 'm'

Finally...we have a Director of Industry and Energy and a Director of Exploration and Intelligence...this makes the abbreviations "D of IE" and "D of EI" refer to two different things. Slightly confusing, maybe we could change one of the names?

Z

[Crisler]

I suggest that if impeachment is done that the Alpha takes charge as the new commissioner and the other officials vote for a new Alpha. This will hold through the existing term when new elections will be done.

E.L. Crisler
First Commissioner

[Kassiopeia]

Ade has been a bit 'unavailable' lately. Has he participated in the Constitutional Committee yet? If not, I could take his place, since I'm the acting leader of LSD while he is absent. I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

[DeathByTheSword]

well this is just a reused DGcivIII thingy and we added something everthing after the first articale hasnt been altered in anyway we want (except names and such) the most importent thing is the first artical and i thing we give crawlers to energy and industry (why not just give it the name of D of E and lose the industry because base productions does 'industery' )

but what will SE do? only SE stands? thats not much i say give that entire screen to D of SE (so plus the tax rates) and dismember or base production (giving D of E every thing) or dismember D of E (giving D of BP everthing (like the later the most )) that is what i think it best. IF D of SE does anything else then i just said just forget what i just said