Tower of Babel

[Jamski]

BIG HUGE THUMBS DOWN.

This is just another complication, and I don't want it.

Slows game down
May help undeserving factions, just because they made nice posts, not because they have mastered SMAC
SLOWS GAME DOWN.
Takes up space on the map.
Open to exploits
WILL cause arguments.
I will call for the self destruction option every tuen if this is implemented. The Bad outweighs the Good tenfold.

-Jam

[Voltaire]

Originally posted by Jamski
BIG HUGE THUMBS DOWN.

This is just another complication, and I don't want it.

Slows game down
May help undeserving factions, just because they made nice posts, not because they have mastered SMAC
SLOWS GAME DOWN.
Takes up space on the map.
Open to exploits
WILL cause arguments.
I will call for the self destruction option every tuen if this is implemented. The Bad outweighs the Good tenfold.

-Jam

Any decrease in game expediancy would be insegnificant given the fact that it is only one base with which the people participating in this would have to deal with. Furthermore, I think it a fair and just price to pay so that everyone can enjoy themselves. Some people might not be interesting in joining the other factions, this gives them an oppertunity to participate in the ACDG without having to commit themselves as such.

That it takes up space on the map? It can be put off out of the way of the other factions. Furthermore there is plenty of space on the map, space that goes unused even at this stage of the game. I don't consider it a valid objection.

What exploits?

What if it does cause dissagreement? That is the sort of thing that makes games interesting, in fact I consider it a positive aspect if it does dissagreement, since out of disagreements arise politics.

[GeoModder]

I wonder if such a 'faction' could act as some sort of court/council entity for non-game recognized 'atrocities' committed by other factions (eg. the mindcontrolled and later destroyed cp in this DG ). That would give great roleplay opportunities for some people, and let the other factions think twice before doing an 'inhuman' thing. Downside off course is that especially the Angels would be brought upon such a council more offen because of their 'criminal' probe behaviour.

[Octavian X]

I love the idea, Kody.

I might add one thing - make it a venue for meetings of the human factions of the Planetary Council. It would be interesting to see more out-of-game council resolutions, like the Hive's old call for a council vote on the PEACE/CyCon war.

[Voltaire]

What of the internal politics of the Tower of Babel? I'm curious if everyone will have a say or only those who are sole residence of the Tower?

[Kody]

Voltaire, the faction has no leader *wink wink* so technically whoever the leader is will be able to decide. Although it needs to be setup that the majority of others in the game feel it's an assest. The other teams do have some control over the exsistance of the faction, so try and do your own thing completely and suddenly there may be a self destruct order from one of the other human factions.

Now everyone is touching on things I was uncertain about when thinking about Babel.

Internal politics I think would be everyone that has membership so even people that also have membership in other factions. That means that the factions within a factions thing people were talking out would be possible in Babel and wouldn't be taking away from each team.

Using Babel as an embodiment of the planetary council might be an idea, but I'm not sure about Babel running peace keeping forces as it would make the turns complex and slow down the game in a way several factions might object to.

Also if it is used as an embodiment of the planetary council then under the rules I stated earlier it would be likely that the first faction that has ruling against them may decide to destory the planetary council by telling Babel to self destruct. Obviously if it is used as a planetary council then it may have to change that self destruct to majority faction vote and a minority may have to take military action to destroy Babel.

The faction would have to be completely isolationist, yes? No units outside of its own territorial boundaries?

That would definitately keep the game speed up.

Like an OCC game within the ACDG itself - interesting

Yep but unlike an OCC it requires real diplomancy. Gameplay wise I don't see Babel winning, but I see alot of fun in players trying to keep the faction alive as long as possible.

For example the Peace in this game down to their last base, you had to respect them for their will to survive. While the destruction of Peace meant very little gameplay wise there was alot of manveouring diplomatically and in the game to keep them alive(and for the cycon to destory them).

Okay there's the truth in where I got the inital idea from...

Slows game down
May help undeserving factions, just because they made nice posts, not because they have mastered SMAC
SLOWS GAME DOWN.
Takes up space on the map.
Open to exploits
WILL cause arguments.
I will call for the self destruction option every tuen if this is implemented. The Bad outweighs the Good tenfold.

Kindof funnny, we've switch roles Jamski. You're concentrating gameplay and I'm thinking roleplay.

Game time is an issue I agree, that's why I've talked about ways to reduce the time it takes for turns. Sort of reminds me of Buster coming in at the last minute talking about a faction concentrating on gameplay... only in this case it's roleplay.

Gameplay isn't the only way factions contribute, strong roleplay livens this place up (you're the one that made me decide that during the last ACDG ). Why shouldn't roleplay be rewarded...

Yes it takes up space on the map, but only 1 city. Like voltaire said there's plenty of space on the map.

The faction will be no more open to game expolits than any other faction assuming that unfair bonuses are not given to the faction. This is part of the reason why I rejected the idea of defence bonuses earlier.

"WILL cause arguments." and also will help the players of different factions get together too. One problem with this current game is the only thing to talk about is your own faction. With Babel will provide a conversation topic other than just asking for drinks at the rec commons.

[Kody]

http://www.ldolphin.org/babel.html

"Now the whole earth had one language and few words. And as men migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, 'Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.' And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. Then they said, 'Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.' And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the sons of men had built. And the LORD said, 'Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.' So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city.' Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth." (Genesis 11:1-9)

"Babel" is composed of two words, "baa" meaning "gate" and "el," "god." Hence, "the gate of god." A related word in Hebrew, "balal" means "confusion."

I chose the name Babel very carefully remembering the original story of the human city Babel. The way I see it can be a place where people can work together and strive for something greater than what they can achieve alone. Just like in the story when Babel is destoried people will nolonger be able to communicate the way they used to and will spread back into their respective factions.

And I figure some of you out there would be itching to play at being god and bring it's downfall. Ahh naming the city Babel.... sort of like the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you name your flagship Titanitic then seeing how long you can keep it afloat.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Theirs a huge contradiction going on here.

If this faction alows people to "partisipate" in the game without joining any other faction (which mind you we desperatly NEED) and yet it only has one base and it can do nothing then asy such partisipation is Empty and meaningless. Conversly if their IS any meaningfull play by this faction then it has become the 5th faction in the game and this WAS VOTED DOWN in the polls. Any possible benifit a person could gain from joining a truely "dose nothing" faction could be gained by an out of game group, at the same time running a base in game would consume time and energy better spent on the supposed goals of this group.

I support the idea of having single player controled factions in the game but only if they actualy are playing to win. If not they are just a waste of space and reduce the fun of other factions by giving us even few competive factions in the game (they would be even less channelging to play with then an AI)

The goals are laudable and seem worth of perhaps a "Planetary Counsil" Forum to be established once we have full contact. Along with a group of nutral Diplomats who "live" in that forum and act as a buffer between the beligerant "real" factions.

Basicaly you can do what ever you like as an out of game organization but you cant have a faction in the game in blatent violation of the Poll results and any atempt to do so is uterly disrespectfull to the rest of the Democracy game players.

[Nubclear]

Just one thing:
If the polls say that people don't support it, yet this thread clearly shows most people do support it, then perhaps the polls were wrong?

Kody: Come online! I need help

[Skanky Burns]

What poll?

[Kody]

Okay,

I don't actually agree with your opinions on how things work, but I agree with you this probably won't get off the ground. However, for mostly different reasons than what you've stated.

You're also making the assumption I'm driving this, which I'm not. Since I still have no plans of participation in the ACDG. This is very much me putting ideas out on how to make the game more interesting. If you look back I've been doing quietly in a post here or there. Just this is the first time I've suggested something completely off the mark that requires serious explanation.

As for the poll results I thought the result was 2 or 3 DG teams and there appears to be 4 already.....

I'm not trying to violate poll results, if I was doing that I would have quietly contacted a few people formed a core group and announced a 5th faction. I probably could have gotten away with it too if I tried. Instead I've said here's the idea... what comments.

Edit:

I believe some of the roleplayers are dissatisifed with aspects of the DG. The question really is how can it be improved. To tell the truth a seperate forum without any game interaction is what I considered first. However, hard I tried I couldn't figure out how it would hold itself together. What I kept coming back to is it would be like the police state game, lots of inital activity and then a deserted forum after a few weeks. So what I figured there needs to be a little real competitive aspect, eg keeping the faction alive and prizes which would tempt players from other factions to roleplay and actually help their faction in game.

There's another option that I believe would go down even worse than this one. Requiring other factions to commit resources to the roleplay faction that will be redistributed as prizes or used to influence global politics. Needless to say most teams will complain loudly and likely drop out.

What would really make me happy is if people stating what they see as wrong, then changing it and then saying how it could work.

[Googlie]

So make it a "human-controlled" AI faction, but with those suggested limitations

(and maybe give it the Universal Translator SP):

##The Universal Translator
#PROJECT20
And the Lord said, "Behold, the people is one, and
they have all one language; and this they begin to do:
and now nothing will be restrained from them, which
they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and
there confound their language, that they may not
understand one another's speech."
^
^ -- The Conclave Bible,
^ Datalinks

[Kody]

Just an note I'm approaching this whole issue as a problem to be solved not as an personal empire that I'm building for myself to lead as some people may have mistaken.

If this faction alows people to "partisipate" in the game without joining any other faction (which mind you we desperatly NEED) and yet it only has one base and it can do nothing then asy such partisipation is Empty and meaningless. Conversly if their IS any meaningfull play by this faction then it has become the 5th faction in the game and this WAS VOTED DOWN in the polls. Any possible benifit a person could gain from joining a truely "dose nothing" faction could be gained by an out of game group, at the same time running a base in game would consume time and energy better spent on the supposed goals of this group.

I've been thinking hard on what you said... and I conceed I really don't know how it will play out. I was hoping maybe only 1 or 2 players in Babel that's not affliated with any other faction, with the majority of the membership actually those with dual membership.

I imagined Babel could be like training wheels on a kid's bike. New members sign up and they learn the ropes before getting recuited into a proper faction. While recuiting for the Hive I heard the common story people were confused about which faction to join and the rule they couldn't change factions later. So instead they just sat on the sidelines. While people could possibly stay just in Babel I hope that there will be enough pressure to get them to join up with a proper faction.

Members that have trouble with their faction's management can help out in Babel, and I hoped the more focused (because it draws a little bit from all the other factions) and more open roleplay of Babel (because it doesn't have secrets) will perk interest and bring more people in.

However, I don't know it would turn out that way, what I stated was my original guess.

I guess details on who would be required to run the faction. The way I see things there only need to be one person that can't join a 2nd faction (the mayor of Babel).

* Mayor (required) - A netural party that runs politics, and basic internal stuff. The only person really required that can't be in a 2nd faction. Voltaire seems interested in this job and he didn't seem too interested in any of the exisiting factions.
* Turnplayer (required) - doesn't matter who as the intent is to keep it all simple, could possibly even be the same turnplayer as the previous faction meaning there will be very little delay with Babel's turns.
* Chronicler (maybe) - again doesn't matter who, just someone interested in keeping a record of the game
* Organisers for events (required) - people that organise debates and competitions. I expect greed will draw the people from other factions to organise things. Mayor says 50 ECs has been allocated to another event, and roleplayers in other factions will probably try and organise something.
* Recuiter (maybe) - someone that talks to the new members and goes over the ropes, you'll be surprised how much this is neglected. Just requires someone semi-netural towards all factions. So can possibly be someone with dual citizenship.

Strategy interested people won't stick around in Babel for long, I fully expect they'll wander off to one of the other factions to the competative aspect.

I support the idea of having single player controled factions in the game but only if they actualy are playing to win. If not they are just a waste of space and reduce the fun of other factions by giving us even few competive factions in the game (they would be even less channelging to play with then an AI)

That is an issue as you basically lose one AI faction that's competting against you. Not sure how to solve that. Possibly make the remaining AI stronger?



Umm anyway I think that just about wraps up everything I can say about this idea. Yeah I know there are alot of holes, and no I probably don't know the answer.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Excuse me Tass but most people do not support this idea. 3 People are oposed vs 2 have expressed a desire to join. Hardly an huge base of support.

Again I reiterate, this idea of using an IN GAME FACTION is my ONLY reason for oposing the idea. Its a useless liability that should never have been atached to an otherwise good idea.

[Kody]

Actually looking back it looks more like 2 versus 2. Voltaire/OctavianX for and Impaler/Jamski against. There are several people that are interested in seeing where this goes, but seem to know as well it won't take off and so haven't bothered to seriously answer (plus this was an idea thread, not a poll).

*whispers to Impaler* To tell the truth the main reason I didn't think it had a hope to start off with is because the ACDG always rejects complicated ideas.