Hiverian Planetary Council Motion: Call of Cease Fire

[FlameFlash]

I tip my stien of *hack* water, to Cap'n Herc and the Hive.

[Drogue]

In answer to Herc:

Originally posted by Hercules
The history books will show who was the wronged faction in this war.

Surely it is logical. If you insult us, continually try to play us against other factions and keep a strangle hold around us with regards to trade, we would find a way out. Our people were poor because of PEACE actions, in their trading arrangements. We needed to do something, and the only option we were left with is war.

And PEACE still refuse to negotiate with us. The Hive calls for us to negotiate with them and we have tried. We are willing to negotiate. However PEACE has refused.

Originally posted by Hercules
I think genocide would be regarded as an atrocity.

Where have the CPU committed genocide? Another unsubstantiated allegation. If we did commit such an atrocity, like pillaging a base, using nerve gas or planet busters, nervestapling drones, etc. you wouldm know about it. We haven't. Former PEACE citizens have been welcomed with open arms into CPU. They are fully fledged citizens. We have not killed them, we have not attacked them, we have tried to minimise civilian losses at every stage. We have not committed a single atrocity against any faction, yet you still accuse us? Please show us this evidence you must have to warrant these accusations, or withdraw them.

[Snowflake]

Very well argued dear Function Drogue. I would like to offer a couple thoughts of myself that represents my personal opinion.

First, this planetary council has always existed, from the first day we land on the planet. The fact that nobody had brought any issue to the council does not mean anybody else cannot bring issues to the council. Yes the international law of the planet may not be complete since people are still fighting to survive in this alien world, but that should not prevent the planetary council making decisions based on votes from all factions, nor precludes each faction casting its vote based upon its judgment on the issue.

Secondly, you are absolutely right that the Hive is not speaking for the PEACE entirely from an altruistic point of view; rather, the Hive is standing up for the sake of itself. What we witness in this planet council meeting is exactly what we feared. We realize that one day, what is happening to PEACE might also happen to the Hive. We do not wish to see such a scenario, that is after the majority of our bases were taken by military force, we were offered “options” that we can either “voluntarily” give up all of our bases and become member of CPU, or face the total elimination from the planet. The people of the Hive value their independence. We would not want to be forced into the “open arms” of anybody. Yes the trigger of the motion has everything to do with the establishment of CPU as well as the real prospect that a faction is about to be eliminated. We may not fear a strong faction. But it is to the benefit of the entire planet that a strong and aggressive faction needs to be checked.

[Kody]

In answer to Kody:
I suppose it depends on your definition of an agreement. The Hive stated that it wished to remain neutral, that it saw it as a private affair between PEACE and the CyCon, and that it would not aid PEACE (militarily or by giving them military technology). Personally, I would consider that an agreement. However with it being so long ago, I am afraid that I do not have the PMs and chatlogs still.

The definition for agreement that I'm using from the dictionary is....
"An arrangement between parties regarding a course of action"

There wasn't any arrangement. The Hive stance would have remained the same even if the Cycon never contacted the Hive. Although if you're using a different definition I guess what you said was true.

You're definiately not using the law definition of the term agreement.
"a) A properly executed and legally binding contract."
"b)The writing or document embodying this contract."

As for the rest of your questions, that's nothing to do with me now. I just watch what is happening with the Hive.

[Skanky Burns]

The people of the Hive value their independence.

?

[Hercules]

Our people were poor because of PEACE actions, in
their trading arrangements. We needed to do something, and the only option we were left with is war.

Your Government deliberately chose not to honour tech trade agreements. Honouring them was the option you set aside to go to war.

And we helped your ungrateful 'poor' people to get out of the dark ages.

I know of no Peace citizens that have joined CPU. Peace citizens either died valiantly defending their bases or are seeking safety. The people in CPU bases are Borg colonists.

We didn't refuse to negotiate. We were offered the chance to join Cycon after the Peace faction was eliminated.

[Voltaire]

Actually, that is incorrect. There are clearly defined atrocities which warrant council actions, such as use of Planet Busting weaponry, nervestapling and the uise of nerve gas. We have committed no such atrocities. There is no charter that the CPU has agreed to that forbids the use of aggression, especially as a last resort. Moreover, this war was started many years before this Council existed, and as such it has no place to intervene in this war. I would ask the Hiverian representative to show me the piece of legislature that we have broken, and the evidence for their accusation, or to withdraw it.

Your ignorance does by no means excuse you from punishment under the law; Articles 1.1, 2.1, 2.3-4; furthermore honorable members aggression has had long been held since the Nuremburg Trials of Nazi War criminals on Old Earth, a principle adopted by the United Nations and later this Council, that acts of aggression are a crime. The United Nations charter, which I would like to remind the Council that the CPU implicitly agrees to by being part of this council, forbids acts of aggression and enables this Council to take action to prevent such acts to ensure global security. The CPU delegation does not even deny this, they keep harking back to ‘atrocities’, might I remind this Council that aggression perhaps is the worst atrocity of all for it is done in a complete disregard for sovereign rights of other states. Furthermore the date the Council first took place matters not, all factions here agreed to abide by the UN Charter, the UN charter still had jurisdiction from the start. The legislation you have broken is yours to read in the Datalinks, the UN Charter under which this Council sits.

Depends what you consider aggression. We explained, before the war, the actions PEACE had taken that led to our decision to engage in war. We used military force first, that is true, but we felt aggrieved at the actions of PEACE.

I, good members of the Council, consider what the CPU has done an act of aggression. The intentional disregard for the sovereignty of another nation. Whatever action PEACE had taken does not justify an act of war. You admit to using military force first, you admit to being the aggressor, whatever PEACE had done did not by any means warrant the use of force.

There are many issues, and we are avoiding none of them. One of those issues is why the Hive supported our war, and has not changed their minds now.

Neutrality is different from support, we remained neutral.

You are avoiding the point raised here. The point Comrade Octavian X made was that of the likelihood of a humanitarian disaster. As I said before, that likelihood is less than the it was under PEACE rule, due to the extra facilities we are building. If you make a point, we will address it. To then states a different point entirely in answer to ours seems illogical. We never argued our building of facilities legitimized anything, we argued that it reduced the chance of a humanitarian disaster, which it does.

Humanitarian disaster or not you are the occupying force. If the Nazi’s had built factories and shops in occupied France would this have justified their occupation? Members of the Council, I in my foolish idealism and desire for peace, think not.

I disagree. Democracy is rule by the people. Whether in times of war or peace, that does not change. The democracy of a Police State is no democracy, however.

The Hive will not engage in petty exchanges with the CPU delegation, we will disregard these comments. We are here to work toward a peaceful solution to these problems, and if the CPU delegation has suggestions we are more than willing to listen.

As the special envoy of CPU I amk deeply offended that the Human Hive supports our war, then calls a meeting, without giving us time to send an envoy, stating that it must be stopped. I am deeply offended that the Human Hive flings accusations without providing any source or evidence, even when asked. I am deeply offended that the Human Hive tried to use a Council mandate, that does not even include condemning acts of war, that was written after the war was started, to try to argue against a war they helped start, all without a shred of evidence for such atrocities they claim we have committed, or even showing us any international law that we have broken. The whole proposition seems ludicrous.

The Human Hive never supporter your warmongering ways. That we remained neutral was a mistake, one which we have taken to correct. Members of the Council, the evidence is more than clear, the CPU fired the first shot, they were the aggressors. The CPU seems unaware that all factions are subject to the UN charter until so repealed by this Council, an act this Council has in its wisdom taken not to do. They have contravened the UN charter.

We do not and have never called you tyrants. We have not insulted the Human Hive at all, and we object to you making up such accusations. I merely pointed out that if you wish to write into a Council mandate that war is unacceptable, then why should we not do the same with a denial of self governance? A faction that denies it's people their right to self governance has no place telling another faction that a different group of people have a right to self governance. Furthermore, you claim that our attempts to legitimize our actions (which we were not doing in that instance) with our building of facilities is incorrect, yet you legitimize your authoritarian rule with the same argument, that your government provides what the people need.

Indeed, the CPU makes a good point, perhaps we should amend the UN Charter to ensure that people are granted self-governance, the Human Hive supports this initiative fully, for we have always looked out for the interests of the People first and follow the will of our People. Members of the Council, once again the CPU attempt to deny that they have insulted the Hive in the same paragraph that they insult the Hive, the People of the Human Hive would be deeply hurt and offended at accusations of authoritarianism against their beloved government, we follow the wishes of the People, the People are the sole sovereign in the Human Hive.

Source? Evidence?

Civilian casualties always occur in war, and let me remind this Council that even the death of one civilian is too many. The CPU do not allow access to Hive observers in the occupied territories, furthermore PEACE survivors of the occupation and attack will testify before this council on the brutality of the CPU, Hive humanitarian organizations have been flooded with requests from PEACE refugees fleeing the onslaught of CPU forces. Many have requested sanctuary in the Hive, which the People were more than willing to grant. Members of the Council I ask you to speak to the refugees themselves, hear their own words, then make your decision.

The Council has no such duty legally, and you will pardon me if I do not believe that the Hive dictates their own morals to the Council. The Council is there to keep international law, which has not been broken. Please provide the piece of legislature that we have broken, and the evidence that we have broken it, so that we might show you that it is untrue.

For the last time, the United Nations Charter.

We meant interfere by aiding PEACE in their war effort. If another faction joins PEACE against us, we will defend ourselves, but we will not start an unprovoked war.

You are the ones with a “war effort”, PEACE is defending themselves from you.

No, but comments by high ranking Hiverian officials on such things as "we understand why you did it" (paraphrased), and the aiding of our war with military information on PEACE, are signs of approval.

Baseless accusations, provide the documentation and name of the Hive government official who has stated this.

Not at all. The ending of the Pact was due to the insults and accusations of PEACE, as well as their attempts to use underhand tactics to gain more from our trading deals, as explained before.

Their actions may justify the ending of a Pact, but not the starting of a war.

In World War II there was a mandate for defence. The agreements the British and French had that brought them into the war were legal documents. The Hive has no such agreement with PEACE, and neither does the Council. We have offered PEACE terms that will end the destruction of human life. We do not wish it at all, we wish to preserve it as much as possible. However they have not only refused that, they have refused to negotiate at all. We will happily enter negotiations with PEACE, but our advances as such have been refused.

The UN Charter. You are the ones causing the destruction of life in the first place, members of the Council this is outrageous. If you wished to preserve life you would not have begun the war, quit being condescending. Surrender or die aren’t exactly terms anyone would negotiate on.

That is an opinion. Without an international body to bring our concerns to, such as this Council, in place at the time, we had no other options. They had treated us unfairly, in our opinion. We had been wronged. Without a body of international law, we had to take it into our own hands.

That does not justify your action. You could have ended the Pact with PEACE and let it be, you had been wronged, but being wronged does not give you the right to do wrong.

No, you speak of facts of our atrocities, and of violations of international law. Yet you provide no evidence, no source, and no piece of legislature that we have broken. We have also not accused you of dishonesty. We have accused you of having an ulterior motive for this action, and of playing politics with the lives of former PEACE citizens.

Members of the Council by their own admission here the CPU says they have committed atrocities and broken international law, they cannot even keep this farce of their defense consistent. They admit as much that we tell the truth.

You did it quite well for years before, why change now? You have no legitimate legal reason to be involved at all.

Forgive my communist sensibilities if I believe preserving human life is a legitimate reason.

I would disagree that there is a crisis. As my post says, there is no humanitarian disaster, and the people are not being constrained, prejudiced against, or in any way discriminated against. They are CPU citizens.

They are CPU citizens not by will but by force. The flood of refugees has created a humanitarian crisis, and who knows what goes on in the secure occupied territories, I dare not imagine.

Again, you claim that we occupy a people that did not seek our help, yet you do the same. Your people have not asked to be ruled, they are ruled by a Police State. Former PEACE citizens have self governance. They vote for our leaders, as we live in a democracy. They have more say in their own lives, in how their bases are run, than Hive citizens do. So to claim that we forcing our rule open them is a lot less true than it is for any Hive base.

Absolutely right, the People have not asked to be ruled, the People RULE. Your citizens are given a say in who their leaders will be, our People lead. The People are completely free, the People have given themselves all freedoms and provided for themselves all necessities to live good lives. You speak of giving to your citizens, the People give to themselves what belongs to them by right. Also notice members of the Council that they do not deny that they are occupying PEACE citizens against their will, they retort by accusing us of hypocrisy.

Former PEACE citizens have self rule. They have a democracy, and they vote for their leaders. That is self rule. And we affirm the sovereignty of all factions. However former PEACE bases are now CPU bases, and come under our sovereignty. We also have sovereign rule over our forces, and therefore believe that it is not up to the Council whether these forces are used.

They did not ask you to invade, they do not want you there, if they truly were free to chose they would chose to rejoin PEACE. They vote for their leaders, when the only candidates are the ones you chose. They have not come under your sovereignty since you invaded illegally.

PEACE government does not wish to be part of CPU. PEACE citizens have not spoken. We wished, and still wish, to start negotiations with PEACE. They have refused to negotiate with us.

What is there to negotiate? They do not wish to be part of your faction, that is the end of that. This does not give you the right to invade. Furthermore PEACE citizens have spoken loud and clear, they want to be part of PEACE, not part of the CPU.

That is both unsubstantiated, unsupported, and untrue. Please provide evidence for such wild allegations.

We ask the Council to talk to PEACE refugees themselves.

War is the last refuge for everyone. When all else has failed, it is what you are left with. We did not want war, but the relationship broke down, for reasons we have said before, and it was the only logical option left to us. Why have pity for a faction that has repeatedly tried to do us over, to gain at our expense? If they had shown us an ounce of compassion, we would not have acted as we did.

War is only a refuge when invaded. Nothing else but self-defense justified war. War is hardly ever logical. They attempt to demonize the victims here members of the Council, for shame.

Neither of which have broken any agreement we have signed. Neither of which are against international law. Neither of which are classed as atrocities, acts of terrorism, or violations of international law, as you have tried to claim. Please stated the evidence and the legislature, for these accusations, or withdraw them.

UN Charter. Even if you chose not to sign international law does by no means place excuse you from invading a faction which does recognize it.

International law has not been broken. Wild and unsubstantiated allegations have been thrown at CPU, without evidence, legislature or even a source to back it up. It seems that the Hive is trying to write international law as it sees fit, without providing any legislature for such an action. The UN Charter is not the mandate for the Council. Certain factions that have long since disbanded tried to make it as such. However atrocities are well defined, and are illegal, under international law, but are all that is illegal. The UN Charter is not a legal document on Chiron. There is not even the option to vote for it to be as such in the Council.

Denying facts will not help anything. The Charter is in effect, this Council has not and will not remove the UN charter which is in effect.

Moreover, any such Charter, were it ratified, would only relate to actions taken after it's signing. This war started before there was a Planetary Council, and so actions before then would not be bound by the same rules. However they is, and has never, been a UN Charter that has been ratified on Chiron as international law. International law forbids atrocities only. The bottom line is that there is no law against war, and against aggression. The Hive has made many unsubstantiated allegations to terrorism, atrocities and violations of international law. We have not committed any of these. We admit to going to war, with the Hive's aid at the time, and for reasons that have been presented to the Hive government. Even without those, what we did was not illegal. War is not banned by international law.

The UN Charter is Chrionian international law. All factions agreed before Planetfall to abide by the Charter.

We ask the Hive to look at the history of cooperation we have had until just recently, and to help rekindle that. We are puzzled and hurt by their apparent turn against us, and ask that they try to work with us rather than throw accusations and make demands themselves. We should urge the Hive leadership not to buy in to unsubstantiated claims.

The People of the Human Hive would be more than happy to resume friendly relations, but we cannot do so when others are suffering under your occupation. Withdraw to your original boundaries and we will be more than happy to resume friendly relations.

[DeathByTheSword]

first all the chirionian international law states the following only:

*ones every 20 years all members of the councel are allowed to start elections for planetary governer

* ones every 10 years all members of the councel are allowed to ask for a vote in several areas.

* as long as the UN charter is uphold the following my not happen by internetional law:
no planet buster may be launched
no toxic gas may be used in war
no nervestapling may happen on citizens
no planting of virussen in enemy bases is allowed

NO WHERE it states the war is not allowed. IT does have certain rules IF war would happen (which kinda is strange if war is illigal). and none of those have been broken.

also may I state that the cycon government does not exist anymore. former cycon and Uni territory is now being govern by an internationally respected government known as CPU.

further May i state that because we do not live in a police state and no base is under martial law any citizen in CPU territory may go where it wants. we in fact have an open line between all CPU bases and current PEACE bases. only military forces are not allowed in current CPU territory. we have not recieved any hive request to look at our bases. but we dont even need to. they could just go to the bases and look for themself. but i have to repeat military forces are currently not welcome.

[Maniac]

HongHu:

Secondly, you are absolutely right that the Hive is not speaking for the PEACE entirely from an altruistic point of view; rather, the Hive is standing up for the sake of itself. What we witness in this planet council meeting is exactly what we feared. We realize that one day, what is happening to PEACE might also happen to the Hive. We do not wish to see such a scenario, that is after the majority of our bases were taken by military force, we were offered “options” that we can either “voluntarily” give up all of our bases and become member of CPU, or face the total elimination from the planet. The people of the Hive value their independence. We would not want to be forced into the “open arms” of anybody. Yes the trigger of the motion has everything to do with the establishment of CPU as well as the real prospect that a faction is about to be eliminated. We may not fear a strong faction. But it is to the benefit of the entire planet that a strong and aggressive faction needs to be checked.

If your safety is your true concern, then the solution is very simple: a demilitarized zone and a recognition of each other's spheres of influence.
I propose the following:
(32.46), (34.40), (36.38), (42.38), (43.37) and the two islands between those coordinates become a demilitarized zone.
Everything northwest of that is Hive territory, and everything southeast of that is CPU territory.
Any unit of any faction which trespasses the DMZ or enters the territory of the other faction, is considered in violation of the treaty and may be destroyed.

Surely if your interest is peace and stability on Planet, you will see the rationality of such an agreement.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Hercules
I know of no Peace citizens that have joined CPU. Peace citizens either died valiantly defending their bases or are seeking safety. The people in CPU bases are Borg colonists.

No, when a base is captured, though some people disperse, most stay. We have not sent any colony pods to former PEACE bases.

Originally posted by Hercules
We didn't refuse to negotiate. We were offered the chance to join Cycon after the Peace faction was eliminated.

IMHO a negotiation is where one faction makes a proposal, and the other comes back with their own, and a debate ensues. We wished to start a debate, to start negotiations. However you have provided no proposal, have not called us to ceasefire or for any form of treaty.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Maniac
HongHu:


If your safety is your true concern, then the solution is very simple: a demilitarized zone and a recognition of each other's spheres of influence.
I propose the following:
(32.46), (34.40), (36.38), (42.38), (43.37) and the two islands between those coordinates become a demilitarized zone.
Everything northwest of that is Hive territory, and everything southeast of that is CPU territory.
Any unit of any faction which trespasses the DMZ or enters the territory of the other faction, is considered in violation of the treaty and may be destroyed.

Surely if your interest is peace and stability on Planet, you will see the rationality of such an agreement.

Dear Function Maniac, I have not had time to examine the coordinates in your proposal. However I would like to state that I would refuse to participate into dividing what is used to be the teritory of the PEACE, a sovereign faction in the planet and a pactmate faction of the Hive. The people of Hive care for our own safty. However we will not wish to establish our "spheres of influence" based on brutal slaughter and elimination of the PEACE.

An agreement between the Hive and the CPU could be possible, after this planetary council has reached a resolution to this issue, and the CPU has complied with the resolution.

[Voltaire]

Do not waste this Councils time! Will you or will you not immediately cease your hostilities and enter into negotiations supervised by this Council?!

[Voltaire]

Honorable members of the Council the delay in response of the CPU delegation to our simple question only indicates their intent not to cooperate with the ruling and will of this Council, it seems obvious that they with their gratuitous accusations against the Human Hive wish to delay and distract this Council.

The CPU delegation have themselves given us enough evidence to convict on, their admission of being the ones to ‘fire the first shot’. Unlike the warmongering Imperialists this Council is merely interested in peace on Planet, have we asked the CPU anything so absurd that we should be looked upon like fools? Members of the Council what we request is simple, that this horrible war come to and end immediately, and that the CPU submit to supervised negotiations by this Council which we hope will return things to the status quo.

The CPU delegation has not addressed the issue at hand, that of will they submit to the Council or not. I plead to the people of the CyCon on behalf of the People of the Human Hive to look at your leaders, look at the atrocities they are committing in your name, and ask yourselves do you want your names and your children’s names to be stained with this blood mark? This war needs to cease immediately to prevent the destruction of more human life, more than enough blood has been shed in human history, we need not bring the horrors of war from Earth to Chiron.

[Skanky Burns]

Honorable members of the Council the delay in response of the CPU delegation to our simple question only indicates

Because, like, 3 hours is plenty of time for an entire team that spans multiple time-zones to come to a consensus on their reply.

Try to keep some reality in this discussion, shall we?

[Skanky Burns]

Voltaire: How dare you ignore my post. It has now been well over half an hour since I posted that and still you refuse to reply. I shall now use bold text to denote my extreme displeasure at your discourteous conduct.