PRAVDA SPECIAL EDITION #6 - 3rd June 2003 - A NEW CONSTITUTION !

[Mr. President]

Do you come to the ACDG forum looking for in-depth intellectual debate?

I don't.

[Rokossovky]

Ah talk of a God and such! The Dukkha overwhelmes me! HongHu makes many excellent points however.

I guess a common point is that being happy is at least one of the goals that everybody is searching in their lives, right?

Oh yes! Happyness is not only a common thread but THE thread. The search for happyness drives ones life. But how is this attainded? It is not by a God, or any other being or belief outside of you. Jamski had the right idea

I gave up, realising the whole thing was pointless, and I've been a lot happier since.

Of course you're happier! You stopped trying to live for someone else (God in this case) and you started living for yourself. As the secod noble truth states "The dukkha we feel comes from our desire". You were unhappy because you desired to be what God wanted you to be, to be what other people thought you should be rather than you wanted to be. Before you can decide what to believe and what to pursue you must first find yourself or you will ultimately end up being unhappy in life. And it is possible to attain happyness as the third noble truth states "There's a way to see things differently and end this dukkha". This also relates to HongHu's point of:

We human beings are not that different from a three-dimentional ant. How could we possibly understand everything that is happening in a higher dimentional world?

To understand the world you must objectify your position. You must let go of all your desires, your attachments, and live only for yourself and happyness. It is then that you can begin to truly understand the world you live in because you can now stand outside of it as a REAL individual. The Buddha did this when he became awakened. We all have that capability... but are we strong enough to let go..?

[Jamski]

Originally posted by Mr. President
Do you come to the ACDG forum looking for in-depth intellectual debate?

I don't.

Just read only the first page of PRAVDA then. I'll try make sure all the jokes IMPORTANT information stays there, and the discussion happens later.

-Jam

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by HongHu

Like those ants who live in the two dimentional world. They live and die, busy with their lives. They may have their own happiness, troubleness, etc. One day a really smart ant may find out that he can go toward one direction and travel a long way and then come back to his original start point. And he realize that his universe is borderless but finite. They make discoveries, build improvements, fight and make peace. But there are so many things that they never understand, like how one ant suddenly disappeared from their world (May be a two-year old boy just picked it up). They could even climb up a tree and see a entirely different view of their world. But how could a two-dimentional ant, even the most intelligent one, understand the human beings who live in the three-dimentional world? If they do have thoughts, would they think we humans as their god? Who are all mighty, all knowing to their oh so fragile world?

I know just what you mean. A few weeks ago, I was standing at a bus stop and saw a chicken bone on the ground, crawling with ants. In a fit of rage, I kicked the chicken bone away. A few minutes later, I put the chicken bone back so the ants could continue enjoying it. In that moment, I knew what it was to be a god. It's like when Jesus died on the cross, that was God kicking the chicken bone away. Someday, the christians believe, the chicken bone will return. A little girl at the bus stop asked me in the ants have buddha nature. I replied, "Mu."

[Drogue]

Originally posted by HongHu
Sometimes you do feel the superiority of the CyCons, such as when TWO words within one sentence is beyond your limited English vocabulary … (No, I’m not gona tell you which two words. Not even which sentence. )

I'm guessing Utilitarianism was one, if that is the post you meant. Maybe ignorance as the other (I noticed many people didn't understand a thread about that on OTF, "Which country is thenmost ignorant")

Originally posted by HongHu
Believe it or not, I’m truly a close relative of Chairman Yang. But trust me, logic is valued at the Hive just as highly as efficiency.

Efficiency with a Planned economy? My dear friend, did they stop teaching economics in Hive schools?

Originally posted by HongHu
And it won’t matter anyway, when we finally meet and become pact brothers and sisters.

Nice to hear such fine words from so worthy an ally. May logic and industrious equality merge into a superfaction and defeat the evil University transcend to another plane

Originally posted by Mr. President
Do you come to the ACDG forum looking for in-depth intellectual debate?

I don't.

In short, yes. I come here because I never know what I will find. If you put this many intelligent people in one place, with a basis of philosophy and how to run a nation, they will enevitably discuss it. Intellectual debate between factions, and on faction ideology and roleplay is one of the main reasons I like Democracy Games.

That ant post was fantastic too. The simplest way of explaining the idea of transcendance I've ever seen

[Snowflake]

Sometimes the "worthless" life of an ant can become valuable even in the eyes of the "gods" (us), since it can give them such great inspirations. That makes me wonder that maybe the humble lives of human beings may become quite valuable to our god(s) too. Isn't that a happy and encouraging thought?

On anothe thought, we the gods don't really know what the ants are thinking. GooglieGod, tell me if our god(s) know what we the three-dimentional ants are thinking / praying? I'm gonna stop right here, before any sad thought can occur. There's always hope.

[Drogue]

Since I don't believe in God(s) I don't think they really care about us

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by HongHu

On anothe thought, we the gods don't really know what the ants are thinking. GooglieGod, tell me if our god(s) know what we the three-dimentional ants are thinking / praying? I'm gonna stop right here, before any sad thought can occur. There's always hope.

Yes, quit while you're ahead...

[Maniac]

To understand the world you must objectify your position. You must let go of all your desires, your attachments, and live only for yourself and happyness.

Isn't that kind of the ultimate subjectification instead of objectification? Happiness for yourself is a desire like any other, which you should let go if you want to objectify your position.

Just teasing you... I agree with you on several points, though I would phrase it differently.

[Snowflake]

Maniac, That was quite a scary thought!

[Rokossovky]

Isn't that kind of the ultimate subjectification instead of objectification? Happiness for yourself is a desire like any other, which you should let go if you want to objectify your position.

Ah! Maniac is wise! But no! One must understand the difference between a desire and a pursuit of pleasure. When you desire something you often find that once it is done with you want it again, you are not content. If you do something for pleasure and for happiness alone and do not become attached to that, then it is fine. You are left feeling only better, not lacking. But no, happiness is not a desire, it is a state of mind and life. And as for the subjectification, I would disagree. As I said before, by doing this we free ourselves from the world, we detach ourselves from our surroundings and become an entity looking in.

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by Rokossovky
You stopped trying to live for someone else (God in this case) and you started living for yourself.

If you live for any thing other than God, you make an idol of that thing and thus break the most important commandment of all. Please think about that.

I'm done pontificating, in any case, the time has passed.

[Rokossovky]

If you live for any thing other than God, you make an idol of that thing and thus break the most important commandment of all. Please think about that.

If one is Christian, yes, that is a problem. But if one is not, then one is free to become enlightened.

- Rokossovky

[Corellion]

Originally posted by Rokossovky

If one is Christian, yes, that is a problem. But if one is not, then one is free to become enlightened.

- Rokossovky

First, on a purely technical point, I'd like to point out that there are more religions than just Christianity that hold this belief, however I'll assume you were just using that for simplification's sake.

Now, to address the actual point. I disagree with your statement that one can become enlightened only through the sole pursuit of happiness. How can one state truly what makes others happy? You ultimately only have knowledge of yourself (even that is debatable), and cannot tell what happiness is for someone else. Reading through Cedayon's posts, it appears quite clear to me that he is very happy through the pursuit of God's will. Just because that is not something that would make you happy does not make it any less valid. People, being as diverse as they are, can find happiness (or enlightenment, as you call it) in any number of ways. To take the biological viewpoint, happiness is only the condition that exists when your brain detects endorphins (and other chemicals... I'm not a biologist, so don't quote me on this). To take [a] religious viewpoint, happiness is a state that exists when one is pursuing God's will. With the worldview that I have, I tend to agree with the biological viewpoint, but even taking that point does not preclude any of the other possibilites depending upon to whom one is referring.

Take the perverbial ant who has become like a mascot to this discussion, for example. This diminutive creature probably derives happiness (if indeed it derives happiness at all), or some possible equivilent (I strongly considered putting equivilant, but that's too corny) from serving the queen, because that's what genetics has determined is in the best interests of propagating the genes.

This too ultimately connects back to the whole altruism versus self-interest debate. For many people, altruism is self-interest... for others it is not. I tend to take the view that there is no such thing as pure altruism (and from discussion I believe many of you do too), but that does not exclude acts from being altruistic. It all depends on the values and mindset of the person whom you are considering.

Well, I'll leave it at that. I have a habit of becoming somewhat incomprehensible grammatically when talking like this for long periods of time, so please excuse me if it is.

[Rokossovky]

I disagree with your statement that one can become enlightened only through the sole pursuit of happiness

It is not the pursuit of happiness that brings enlightment, but enlightenment that brings happiness. What you need to pursue is a life free of dukkha (can roughly be translated as suffering). It is only once you are free of dukkha that you can be truely happy because you have gained enlightenment. You will not gain enlightenment by arbirarily trying to become happy. It is a result, not a cause. "live for happiness" is what I believe I said.

Reading through Cedayon's posts, it appears quite clear to me that he is very happy through the pursuit of God's will

If that is what pleases him then more power to him. What I said was that you will only be able to find true enlightenment and thus true happiness when you stop living a life for someone else and live your life for you. Also, it is not the fact that I wouldn't enjoy it that detracts from it's ability to produce true happiness, it is the fact that you attach yourself and limit your perspective. As Cedayon pointed out, living your life for God is a Fundamental of christian beliefs. He will disagree I am sure, but in my view this is placing you in a box where the light of the outside can only shine in through one hole. But once again, i am not trying to convert him, just sharing my views as you and him seem to be doing as well.