Next DG Discussion

[fed1943]

As I said,I have no experience with SMAX(I found and read the manual)and no ideia of SMAniaC.But,if not very diferent from SMAC:
I liked Maniac and binTravkin proposals;more difficult to play?maybe,but very interesting;at very least,a worth experience.
But I don't think this put away what Vyeh said:
Military commander - better think at military command.A military command is necessary,but can exist or not a commander;the militar council can be one of the tasks of the governors,with or without a coordenator that can be,or not,governor.(Some places,near the borders,will need more troops,for safety reasons,and so need the permanent help of fellows governors,and that even without vendetta).
The Believer Probes - Outside situations of vendetta and internal safety,probes must be "given" to the Brain(be it a person,a council or whatever)because I think(forgive me if wrong)probes are our science.
But obviously,partners,I will be happy with any choise.
Best regards,

[binTravkin]

Federal tax?
Although my decentralist nature protests that, I could give a try.

I like the probe offer, though the feds would need to pay for the probe my city produce!

[Kataphraktoi]

SMAniaC, Conclave(my vote for xyz reasons)

Alot of ideas, i would contribute, but not feeling inspired atm.

[vyeh]

Wow! I'm really glad to see the response (although there were four more posts while I was generating this long response off-line). It looks like people are generally accepting points 1 through 6 of the consensus I enumerated 23-03-2006 (SMAX, SMAniaC, Transcend, Standard size map, Conclave (Believer), Secret goals).

There seems to be an issue with 6a. (individuals would sign up for secret goals, binTravkin is proposing every player would join an Order and that each Order would have its own forum --> everyone would be on a team with its own secret goals)

It looks like people are generally accepting a two-tier arrangement (although PJayTycy is raising the issue of practicality)

There seems to be some issues with balance of power between the Conclave and the diocese or parishes (Maniac) or between the dioceses (PJayTycy). binTravkin proposes taking the power of choosing which parish gets a Secret Project away from the First Bishop and making it a competition among the parishes.

binTravkin appears to be eliminating the concept of region (7b) in favor of Orders.

binTravkin appears to be proposing further structure to the two-tier arrangement.

Originally posted by PJayTycy
That's all nice, but how are you going to do that practically ?

Expect everyone to open up the gameturn, move the units in their base / set the worked tiles, then take screenshots and send them to the turnplayer ?

I envisioned that the governors ("bishops" or base commanders ("parish priests") would submit their orders to the Soul of God (internal affairs) who would reconcile them, fill in orders for players who are tardy and for parishes without players and submit them to the turnplayer.

I wouldn't expect everyone to open up the game turn. There is no need for those purely role playing. And it might not be necessary for someone who is game playing if they can follow the screenshots or the debate.

As Maniac pointed out, screen shots are not necessary. For some parish priests, they would only have to communicate changes ("move the worker from the NW square onto the new borehole") and have a standing order with the Soul of God ("no changes unless you hear from me, let the AI work")

Originally posted by PJayTycy
=> How much energy can each base use to hurry ?

Under binTravkin's proposal, each base would have its own account. The central treasury might also give funds for items which benefit the Conclave (network nodes, etc.).

Originally posted by PJayTycy
=> What if 2 cities put workers on the same tile (in case of overlapping base radii)

This would be resolved by the Soul of God, if the two parishes failed to negotiate among themselves.

Originally posted by Maniac
With that amount of power for the factional government members, participants who aren't a base government would have nothing to do I fear.

I thought the point of YOUR two-tier proposal (correct me if I'm wrong) was to provide a base government position for every player who wanted one.

We can trim the powers and give some to the Orders which would allow the head of Orders to have some say (wouldn't it be fun for a head of an order to issue a fatwah and the First Bishop finds himself in the middle of an unwanted Crusade - to mix two different religious terms?)

For role-playing purposes, let's remember that the Conclave is a religious hierarchy and not necessarily democratic. Your next comments show that you're only proposing two mandatory polls for election of the First Bishop and the Organs of God.

While lots of polls was natural in the Peacekeeping environment and reflected the bureaucratic inefficiency for which the Peacekeepers are well-known, they may not reflect the Conclave (since you're their creator, tell me if I'm wrong).

On the other hand, this is a democracy game, so there must be some mechanism for participation and religious orders often have upheavals. Since the Conclave is religious and not authoritarian, I envision an environment in which everyone interprets the "Will of God" for themselves. If they fill the First Bishop is violating the Will of God, they can move to oust him through impeachment or more violent means. Or dioceses could refuse to cooperate. So it is in the interest of the First Bishop to poll the players so he doesn't get ousted before the end of his term.

It might be nice if the Conclave is so worried about power corrupting that First Bishops can only serve one term consecutively or the position is rotated among all bishops and no one can serve again until all bishops have served once.

Originally posted by Maniac
Suggestion: how about two polls?

One poll for the turnplayer/faction leader. He'd have to get a 50%+1 majority of the vote, if necessary in two rounds.

So we might have a position where the First Bishop is at odds with his government ministers. That would make the game more fun.

Originally posted by Maniac
One poll in which people could not vote for people, but would have to choose for Orders (=political parties). Then each Order would have a negotiating weight bases on their votes, and a coalition would have to be formed that has at leat half the votes. They'd decide who gets what goverment post.

I think it might be more interesting if you had to allocate your votes to a particular office. Assume that up for election is a Hand of God (military commander), a Brain of God (technology coordinator) and a Soul of God (social engineering coordinator). Let's say there are three Orders (with their votes in parenthesis): Order of the Sword (15), Order of Test Tube (8), Order of the Land (6).

Under the coalition model, the Order of the Sword could appoint all three positions. In an allocation model, the Order of the Sword might have to allocate all of its votes to the Hand of God (or else the other two Orders could deadlock the election), leaving the Order of the Test Tube to pick up the Brain of God and the Order of the Land to pick up the Soul of God.

Of course, the Sword and the Test Tube could gang up to freeze out Land entirely. This could make for some great diplomacy!

Originally posted by binTravkin
How about all units built in that base are being under command of the proper parish, unless control transferred to Order Of Sword by the Decree Of Holy Crusade.

Covered under 7bvi and 7bvii of the suggested consensus, if vendetta = Decree of Holy Crusade and you mean Hand of God when you said Order of Sword (although it would be interesting if the Orders were attached to specific game functions, then players who wanted to be military commanders would join the order of the Sword).

Originally posted by binTravkin
Parishes would also trade units inbetween themselves, aka rehome.
Parishes also own the energy credits produced by their bases at the start of the turn and energy credits made by their units by killing/popping.

Good addition. Trading units would encourage some parishes to build morale enhancing facilities.

You're proposing separate energy accounts. I assume that each parish might be required to contribute a tax or tithe to the Conclave. I can accept this within the original framework.

Originally posted by binTravkin
Starting energy credits and all other sources, like e.g. interfactional trade and salvage of Unity Core would belong to Conclave.
Also, all independant units and any resources produced by them would belong to Conclave.

Presumably energy credits from HQ and bases not run by players would go to the Conclave's account, along with any taxes or tithes.

Originally posted by binTravkin
EDIT: however, resources like instabuilds which go to the closest base should be negotiated a reward upon, e.g., the parish of Valley Of The Saints gifts a former to the parish of The City Of Sins (captured enemy base ), for popping a 0-3t-2 crawler in his city.

Seems covered under trading units above.

Originally posted by binTravkin
Then, when time comes, Conclave issues, The Decree Of Holy Grail, which means that the parishes compete between themselves, who of them is gonna build an SP and be rewarded the Reward Of Holy Grail (a high prestige for any individual parish).
Parishes of one order could also cooperate to achieve the readiness to build an SP.

This is a modification to 7ai (the First Bishop's power to assign secret projects to a parish)

I originally assigned the ability to choose the parish for the SP to the First Bishop, because that would give the First Bishop the ability to make campaign promises. Your suggestion is interesting because it would make the game more interesting.

I would like to hear more about the mechanics of the competition. How about who has donated the most energy credits? Or who has contributed the most military units to the Hand of God? Since the Secret Project is a scarce resource, the competition should be based on contribution to the Conclave (both in role playing sense and in the game playing sense that if the Secret Project gives the parish high prestige, the parish should have to give up something for it -- otherwise the rich get richer)

Originally posted by binTravkin
Also, a base founded by parish belonging to e.g. Order of Wisdom (or whatever our scientist party is called), belongs to that order and the founder parish is free to choose the new parish from
- the people who live in their city/base
- the people from other parishes of the same order.

This appears to eliminate the idea of regions (7b). Since Maniac proposed both regions and faction-wide regions, I don't believe that was his intention. I think a base founded by a parish (city/base) belongs to the region, if it has enough players to move one there or it can invite a player to immigrate there. Otherwise the parish goes to the Soul of God (internal affairs) until a new player claims it.

I think it is more interesting in game terms if a player's choice of parish (and region) and a player's choice of Order are independent. Then there are more combinations and more fluidity.

Maniac's proposal that if a parish or diocese has at least three players, they can forbid immigration suggests that the parish belongs to them and not to the Order.

I'd like to hear from Maniac (hope he didn't get distracted earlier in the post and is now writing a long reply), but I need more convincing on the benefit of this change on game and role playing.

Originally posted by binTravkin
For that matter I could introduce to you an idea to Orders being separate teams.
Imagine - each order has it's own private forum, where they plot secretly against other orders and decide their internal matters, e.g. would they compete for Reward Of Holy Grail and which members of it will run to be elected First Bishop and for other official positions.

I support this idea. I think it furthers and implements point 6 (secret goals).

Originally posted by binTravkin
Also, each member of ACDG would need to first choose in which order he would join, and secondly in which city/base he would live (thus being somewhat subject to local parish, who, for example, could pick you as the parish for newly founded base, or banish you from his domain, if you make trouble).

This contravenes point 6a (players sign up for secret goals). Also Maniac originally posted that new players would live at HQ so they would not need to be overwhelmed with regional issues. The same reasoning applies to joining an Order.

It would be easier for players new to SMAniaC or SMAX or DG to be able to participate in the game before joining an Order or a region. While I don't regret joining the DA's in ACDGIII, one of the questions I was asked after Hercules let me join after I persisted was why did I choose to join a losing team. All I knew about the teams was their description on the Democracy Game forum. So I joined based on a description by Enigma, who was no longer part of the DA's or the DG for that matter ...

ACDGIV could be a more inviting place for players who want to dip their toes in the water if they could participate before making an irrevocable commitment to an Order or joining an Order at all. For that matter, if there were separate forums and there were CMN's patrolling the forums to prevent cheating, those CMN's could still participate in the game (I don't see any problem with the CMN's also assisting the AI since their goal is to make the game more fun, not obliterate the humans).

In role playing terms, the Orders are an additional commitment from Conclave members (with secret goals), and a vast majority of Conclave members do not belong to an Order. Thus there is no reason for every player to belong to one. The idea of secret goals was to give an additional challenge/opportunity for fun to those who wanted it.

I'm against this idea.

Originally posted by binTravkin
Next idea (aplogies if been discussed):
The Holy Crusade - all parishes must end the peaceful buildup they do and start producing military units, for the Crusade.
If a parish refuses to do so, he risks being either Excommunicated or pronounced Heretic ( ), which is a serious hit to his prestige and includes some restrictions in governmental issues.
Excommunication and Heretism can be revoked if parish takes up the Holy Cross and joins the crusade wholeheartedly.

This is a good idea. From a role playing perspective, it would add a lot to the flavor. I'd be interested in hearing what the restrictions in governmental issues. Since all parish orders go through the Soul of God (internal affairs) and then to the turn player, it would be easy to impose sanctions (could always self-destruct some units or eliminate terrain improvements). Can the moderator of a private forum take away a poster's rights? If so, the defiant player can be expelled from his Order.

If the First Bishop excommunicates, I would be reluctant to take away his right to vote for First Bishop, since there should be a way to remove a First Bishop who declares Vendetta without support from the parishes. It would be interesting if a First Bishop (and/or Government Ministers) are automatically removed if over half the parishes are heretical.

You've mention prestige before. I assume this is a separate index calculated for each parish. Is this similar to the top 5 bases shown in the game?

We should explore who can declare Vendetta. An individual Order? An individual region? Suppose a region is right next to another faction and has military units. Can the diocesan bishop attack that faction? If an individual diocese can subjugate that faction, why not?

Or the secret goal of an Order might be the complete destruction of a certain faction. Why shouldn't the Order use the military units under its control and attack that faction? Isn't the whole purpose of secret orders to add spice to the game?

Originally posted by binTravkin
One problem would be non-presence of parish at a needed moment, then his orders would be issued either by (in order of priority):
1.his vice parish (if there is one and is present)
2.GrandMaster of his order (if is present)
3.First Bishop (or rather turnplayer)


What do you think?

In reverse order, point 3:

For practicality, I envision that the turn player gets his instructions from (1) the Hand(s) of God, (2) the Brain of God and (3) the Soul of God.
If he doesn't hear from them, he makes the decisions. There might be standing orders to reduce communication (the Brain of God might have a list of techs to choose).

The turnplayer is designated by the First Bishop. While the First Bishop can be the turnplayer, it is not necessary. During Vendetta, it might make more sense for the Hand of God to run the turn (or if there is a two front war and two Hand(s) of God, one Hand of God could do all his moves and battles and pass the turn to the other).

By the way, the reason I separate the First Bishop from the turn player is to give every player the chance to role play the First Bishop. From this thread alone, it is clear that there are players who do not have SMAX (and who probably aren't interested in spending big bucks of eBay to get it).

point 2: the diocese bishop (governor) or the bishop's designee

for two reasons: (1) to reduce the burden on the Soul of God. The bishop would collect and reconcile orders and fill in orders. (2) to allow players to live at a parish for purposes of allowing a region more parishes, but not actually have to run the parish (the governor, who is interested in gameplaying does this). The bishop could also designate someone. It is possible that someone interested in role playing might want to be governor (great power base) and designate a deputy to order base screen actions.

point 1: in a situation where there are more than one player in a base, an available player can give directions.

[vyeh]

For convenience, I have tried to update a proposal. I think it is consistent with Maniac (let me know if you have any changes). It incorporates a lot of binTravkin's suggestions, but notes some disagreements. I look forward to Kataphraktoi's ideas when he finds his muse.

1. SMAX

2. SMAniaC mod

3. Transcend

4. Standard size map

5. Conclave (Believer) faction

Edit: 6. CMN's gives Orders secret goals. Orders have private forums

6a. Voluntary (individuals would sign up)
Note: binTravkin suggestion that every player must join Order.

7. Two level government

7a. Faction-wide
Note: discussion between Maniac and binTravkin about a Conclave tax on parishes

Edit: 7ai. Faction leader ("First Bishop"): declares vendetta, truce, treaty, pact; decides on secret projects (which ones); designates turnplayer.

7aii. Military commander(s) ("Hand(s) of God"): Moves nationalized military units, conducts combat, designs new military units, disbands old military units, upgrade current military units.

7aiii. Technology coordinator ("Brain of God"):Chooses tech to research, decides what to do with alien artifacts.

Edit: 7aiv. Social engineering coordinator ("Soul of God"):Handles social engineering, colonizing from HQ, runs parishes without players, resolves conflicts among parishes or diocese. The Soul of God takes instructions from the diocese and independent parishes on their base screen activities and their units.

7av. All faction-wide officials must live at HQ base.

New: 7avi. First Bishop is elected by 50% + 1 of the players.

New: 7avii. Parishes vote for Orders. Orders choose (weighted by number of votes received from parish) government posts.

New: 7aviii. The turnplayer takes his instructions from the Hand(s) of God, the Brain of God, and the Soul of God.



7b.Bases ("parishes") and regions ("diocese")
Note: binTravkin seems to be eliminating regions in favor of Orders.

Edit: 7bi. Players in parishes can voluntarily join their parishes together in one diocese and elect a bishop for the entire diocese and have diocesan law. The bishop takes instructions from his parishes on their units and base screen activities.

7bii. If a parish or diocese has at least three players, they can vote by a 50% + 1 majority to forbid migration of a player to their region.

7biii. There can be only as many parishes in a region as there are players.

7biv. Each player would choose one parish to live in. And only players living in that base could vote on who would become governor for that parish or diocese.

7bv. HQ is under the control of the Soul of God.

7bvi. Parishes or diocese control everything in their base screens, placement of workers, specialists, facility and unit construction, build queues, movement and activities of all units.

7bvii. Military units are under control of the parish or diocese that support them unless there is a vendetta (when they would be under control of the Hand(s) of God) or the parish or diocese cedes control to the Conclave.

New: 7bviii. Parishes could trade units among themselves.

New: 7bix. Each parish would have its own energy credit account of the energy it produced through base activity and killing/pod popping by its units.

New: 7bx. Parishes compete for secret projects.

New: 7bxi. New parishes created by colony pods from an existing parish or diocese belongs to that parish or diocese if they have a player to occupy it (see 7biii). Otherwise the Soul of God will assign it to the next player on his list.
Note: binTravkin suggests giving the new parish to an Order

New: 7bxii. During a Holy Crusade, all parishes must end their peaceful buildup and produce military units. If a parish refuses to do so, the head of the parish my be excommunicated or pronounced a heretic.

Next steps:

1. Let's see if we can get some agreement among the posters on this thread (is it my imagination or did the thread become more active after I thought Maniac and I were agreeing).

2. Once we do that, Maniac posts a poll with our consensus.

3. We ask the moderators for permission to post a thread about the poll on the other AC forums.

4. If we get enough support from the poll, we start the game.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by fed1943
But I don't think this put away what Vyeh said:
Military commander - better think at military command.A military command is necessary,but can exist or not a commander;the militar council can be one of the tasks of the governors,with or without a coordenator that can be,or not,governor.(Some places,near the borders,will need more troops,for safety reasons,and so need the permanent help of fellows governors,and that even without vendetta).

I'm not quite sure what I said! My main objective is seeing ACDGIV running. While it is important that players like Maniac and binTravkin are happy, it is also important that players like you are happy. I hope to see a lot more role play.

For the purposes of getting the game going, I don't want to write a document in a lot of detail. Surely, there are role playing people that would love to write the Conclave Charter. What the document for the poll needs is to explain the game environment so people can make a determination if they are interested.

Your point addresses one of the most fundamental aspects about the game's environment: the balance between the Conclave level and the bishops (governors). While there should be a Hand of God for the HQ's military activities, this doesn't stop governors from having their own military units.

And there is no reason neighboring bishops couldn't band together to handle a common border issue.

The question your posts raises in my mind is: during a vendetta, what happens to the parishes military units. We could follow binTravkin's line of thought. Suppose a bishop doesn't want to cede control of his units to the Conclave (great unrest on the border). Can the Conclave officials declare him a heretic?

The second interesting point you raise is making the Hand of God an appointment of the bishops rather than the Orders. No reason there couldn't be several Hands of God, one for each front.

Originally posted by fed1943
The Believer Probes - Outside situations of vendetta and internal safety,probes must be "given" to the Brain(be it a person,a council or whatever)because I think(forgive me if wrong)probes are our science.

Probes are a fascinating part of Alpha Centauri. They can be used for military purposes (they can sabotage defenses and subvert bases and units), for science purposes (they can steal technology) and even for economic purposes (they can steal energy credits from another faction). They're also useful in exploration (since they don't cost support and don't generate drones, although they are vulnerable).

The point about probes being given to the Brain raises the larger question of the balance of power between the Conclave level and the parish level. I think Maniac's proposal of a tax might cover it. The probe unit could be turned over to HQ in payment of the tax.

The tricky part is balancing the Conclave and the parishes so that it is fun to play at either position and to give role playing full scope.

[fed1943]

Yes,the complete agreement looks iminent,that's the important.Let me try to explain better the two points I posted:
Military- supose two Orders(or regions):A and B;B territory is next and to the north of A;A is an old,powerful Order with plenty unities and no more has borders with another faction;B is young,with few unities and to north of his region there is another faction.We do not want,right now,vendetta with that other faction,but perhaps they want it.And,if they attack sudendly,Order B would be hardly beaten,before the help of A arrives.So,it would make sense to ask A to give passive protection to B,advancing some troops to north(obviously,A should get some credit for it).
About the Hand of God:from partners said,I see him,not as a commander-in-the-field,but as General Chief Head Quarter,planing,advising,pointing the threats and the opportunities.

(to be continued)

[Addled Platypus]

this would be my first


so of course I would love to see another


any team want to take a newbie in?

[fed1943]

(continuation)

Probe teams - Sure,probe team can perform several,and always useful,tasks.That's true for all(or almost)factions.
And we will want to infiltrate,subvert bases and unities,get energy;others factions want it,too.But (I think and don't know if partners agree or not) there is a task we want more,the said steal of technologie.
Some others research and some times steal a tech;if I'm not wrong,we better look the other way:first research the probes'tech,then steal and sometimes research,if possible.
That was the reason,I told "give"the probes to the Brain;said probes can under control of the Conclave or not,but Bishops must provide a suply of them,since they are going to be of service as fast and as often as possible.The suplier must be credited.

Just what I think.Again,I will be happy with any decision.
Best regards,

[Maniac]

I've written a constitutional draft myself, but there's been a lot of long posts in the meanwhile. Will start replying to them.

I had a look at some names the Vatican uses. Should we use a couple of them? Included a few in this draft as a possible example.

***

Church Structure

The Lord’s Conclave has three organizational levels:
1. The Clergy
2. The Episcopate
3. The Curia

1. The Clergy consists of all the people participating in the ACDG.
Any clergyman is allowed to post a poll on matters concerning the faction as a whole. The poll passes and its content becomes factional law if:
a) The YEA votes are bigger than the NAY votes
b) The number of YEA votes reaches a certain quorum. The quorum is x% of the votes in the last Order membership poll (cfr infra).
c) The poll has been open for x days

2. The Episcopate consists of all the Bishops. Bishops are base governors, and are allowed to give orders related to their bases. This means control of everything in their base screens, placement of workers, specialists, facility and unit construction, build queues, movement and activities of all units. But it is all subject to general restrictions imposed by factional law.

3. The Curia is the administrative apparatus of the Conclave.
The head of the Curia and of the faction as a whole is the Pontifex Maximus (in short: Pontifex). S/he is the turnplayer, or may appoint someone to play the turn instead. The Curia is divided into several Dicasteries, each with a specific function. The head of a Dicastery is allowed to give orders to the turnplayer on his or her specific field.


The hierarchy of authority is as follows:

For factional matters:
1. Factional laws accepted by the Clergy
2. The competent Dicastery head
3. The Pontifex Maximus
4. The turnplayer

For Episcopal matters:
1. The bishop
2. The competent Dicastery head
3. The Pontifex Maximus
4. The turnplayer

Factional law accepted by the clergy and orders by the bishops have the highest authority. If no relevant law has been passed, no orders have been given, or the law or orders need to be worked out in further detail, the competent Dicastery head may give orders. If no orders from the Dicastery have been given, the Pontifex (or his/her appointee) may use his or her best judgement during turnplaying.


Elections

Each month two official polls are held in which all the members of the Clergy may vote. They are open for x days.

The first poll is the election of the Pontifex Maximus at the end of each month. Every clergyman may announce their candidacy for the Pontificate. A candidate must gain 50%+1 (as always, rounded down) of the votes to be elected. If no one gains that number of votes in the first round, a second round is held between the two candidates with the most votes.

In the second poll the Clergy must announce or confirm their membership of a Religious Order. The weight each Order has based on the poll results is then used to determine who gains control over which dicastery.


Episcopal Structure

Each person can choose to live in a specific base in the faction. People who do not specify a base are assumed to live in our headquarters base.

Each base and its surroundings forms a diocese. Only people living in a certain base are allowed to elect the Bishop for the corresponding diocese. The only exception is the Holy See, our headquarters, which is always governed by a member of the Curia.

The citizens of bases can decide to unite their dioceses into one bigger Ecclesiastical province (in short: province), and rule it as if it were one diocese, with one bishop election, and factional law applying to the province as a whole. The citizens of a base can at a later date always decide to leave the province.

There can at most only be as many bases in a province as there are people living in that province.

If a base or the province containing the base has been founded for at least a month, and it has at least three citizens, those citizens can vote with a 50%+1 majority to forbid migration of certain people to their base or province.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by vyeh
The central treasury might also give funds for items which benefit the Conclave (network nodes, etc.).

Government subsidies

I think it might be more interesting if you had to allocate your votes to a particular office. Assume that up for election is a Hand of God (military commander), a Brain of God (technology coordinator) and a Soul of God (social engineering coordinator). Let's say there are three Orders (with their votes in parenthesis): Order of the Sword (15), Order of Test Tube (8), Order of the Land (6).

Under the coalition model, the Order of the Sword could appoint all three positions. In an allocation model, the Order of the Sword might have to allocate all of its votes to the Hand of God (or else the other two Orders could deadlock the election), leaving the Order of the Test Tube to pick up the Brain of God and the Order of the Land to pick up the Soul of God.

Of course, the Sword and the Test Tube could gang up to freeze out Land entirely. This could make for some great diplomacy!

to anything that gives some influence to as many people as possible.

A question on an allocation system - not very familiar with it. Suppose Orders A & B made bids for the same position, but A got it after bidding 7 votes, after B made their last offer of 6 votes. Would B then keep their 6 votes to bid on another position? Meaning there could be bluff poker of Orders bidding high for a position they don't really want to remove votes of a competitor?


Re secret projects:

I would like to hear more about the mechanics of the competition. How about who has donated the most energy credits? Or who has contributed the most military units to the Hand of God? Since the Secret Project is a scarce resource, the competition should be based on contribution to the Conclave (both in role playing sense and in the game playing sense that if the Secret Project gives the parish high prestige, the parish should have to give up something for it -- otherwise the rich get richer)

I don't really understand why bases would voluntarily want to build secret projects. With a few exceptions secret projects benefit the whole faction and not just the base that built it. So freerider behaviour and hoping someone else builds it would seem the standard rule to me. Shouldn't it be the opposite: bases being paid and subsidized big time by the Conclave to convince them to build a secret project, instead of bases bidding for who's allowed to build the project (with of course the exceptions of ME, SC, ToE...)?

I think it is more interesting in game terms if a player's choice of parish (and region) and a player's choice of Order are independent. Then there are more combinations and more fluidity.

I agree!

I'm against this idea. [of people needing to join an Order right away]

I agree again!

By the way, the reason I separate the First Bishop from the turn player is to give every player the chance to role play the First Bishop.

Good idea!

[Maniac]

Originally posted by vyeh
For the purposes of getting the game going, I don't want to write a document in a lot of detail.

I agree. That's why in the draft I wrote I didn't include stuff like factional taxes, unit trading, government posts, and who controls colony pods. Those are things that are probably better dealt with in normal factional laws instead of included in a constitution, charter or whatever we want to call it. Other stuff like government posts might vary over the course of the game. Eg in the beginning having a "Foreign Affair Minister" would be pointless. Later on it could be a very important post.

Originally posted by fed1943

There used to be a site where you could download SMAX. I checked it today, and unfortunately its domain apparently expired.

Btw, if you want to have an idea of the changes in SMAniaC, there's a documentation folder in the download where you can see the new tech tree, changes to social engineering etc.

Originally posted by Platypus Rex
this would be my first
so of course I would love to see another
any team want to take a newbie in?

ACDG3 is over. ACDG4, now under discussion, won't have any teams.
Anyone is of course welcome!

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
Anyone is of course welcome!

[fed1943]

Excellent Structure,Maniac.I fully agree.Two points:
The Pontifex and the heads of Dicastery live in HQ.
In a row of elections to Dicasteries,the loser(s)Order keeps his votes for the next election,the winner(s) "loses" same number of votes of strongest opposition.
Best regards,

[Mart]

I would have a question about game mechanics.

Each turn is played with what frequency?
1 turn/2 days? other?
Has this been discussed here?

I remember Hive SP demogame, that one ended after like 30 turns coz of lack of interest had a sessions that multiple turns were made. Am I correct? So several turns were made within a day. I disliked the idea. Kinda makes players not in control, no time for discussions about details.

In order to speed up first turns they might be played 1 turn/day. Though still a lot of important decisions that can effect later win or loss.

Instead of elections per month, I would see rather elections per specific number of turns. Initially that might be more turns, then less, like civ3 succesions games.