What Advantages Has STEAM Brought to 2K, Firaxis and the Civilization Franchise?

[Asher]

I've not noticed any discernible difference between GOO and Steam's DRM. Both have never given me any issues.

I do recognize that DRM is not there for the users, its the choice of the publisher. The whole discussion is academic.

[Modo44]

I do not know why you are having difficulties comprehending. The Steam cut has no additional cost compared to other methods. In fact, I've heard that Steam's cut is lower than B&M cuts.

I agree completely. I'd even say that as add-ons go, Steam provides great value for money to customers. I had trouble comprehending the bolded part that wasn't as clear earlier. I understood "without Steam" as "without any DRM at all," because I consider DRM to be the most important part for a game like Civ (supposedly mostly SP). Sorry, honest mistake.

[MxM]

3% of PC memory. That's outrageous. Pillage Firaxis' offices at once. My Windows 7 system peaks at 39% RAM usage when playing Civ5 on standard maps...

It is a negative, nevertheless. And noticeable one, precisely because windows takes so much space. After windows took 40% of RAM, you left with only 60% or RAM, so, 3% of that is 5% of free memory.

You are making me cry. A few posts ago you were raving about how many awesome options gamers have, then you go and cry about Steam being a monopoly. So which one is it?

For your education, from wiki: "In economics, a monopoly exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it." It does not mean that you do not have any other options.

Exchange is not an open standard.

You do not have to use exchange. It works with open standards. Or I can specify Outlook Express for you instead.

Civ5 would come with DRM with or without Steam, just like Civ4 did. At least with Civ5 I do not need to break the law by getting a no-CD crack just to play my game without a disc in the system...like I had to with Civ4 (pre 3.19).

I agree with you that there could be worse situation. But you again using the logic "it is OK to kill because others kill more". It is better situation for the customers if they have a choice. If somebody wants to have CD check then why not? CD check.

2K does not have a system in place that could provide easy updates to all of the gamers using 2K games. If you keep asserting this, you need to back it up with proof -- I've never heard of it.

"easy" is not the issue here. "easy" is software, not infrastructure. You can go to 2K and download patches for their games. Or if game includes updater you can do it within game. They have infrastructure, they just do not have "steam-like" software that have "autopatch".

Which "standard libraries" exist? Could you link to them?

No, to lazy. I saw them like in tutorials for how to build .net applications...

Please look up "monopoly" before continuing to trot this argument out.

I am giving this advice to you, my friend.
And look, I am not saying that Steam is monopoly today, but it is coming close - it has too much influence already.

Based on WHAT? I've never used a game that used it (and I play a lot of games), but the screenshots I've seen look fairly bland and low-budget...

Based simply on the fact that once you install the game, you do not need to run impulse. That's better DRM for user.

Civ5 is pirated?

That's what I heard. Granted I did not check it myself, I am just repeating what I saw on 2K boards... Quick Google search gave few lings on "Civ 5 torrent". Don't know if it is legit. But what people who pirate say is that Steam is not something that piracy proof at all. At best it delays for couple of days because it does not distribute exe file until release (and probably CD of Civ 5 do not contain exe files either.)

[Asher]

It is a negative, nevertheless. And noticeable one, precisely because windows takes so much space. After windows took 40% of RAM, you left with only 60% or RAM, so, 3% of that is 5% of free memory.

Great.

Now compare and contrast how much Impulse Reactor uses. If it's anything like Impulse itself, it uses far more resources than Steam.

For your education, from wiki: "In economics, a monopoly exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it." It does not mean that you do not have any other options.

That definition should clearly, to any intelligent person, not apply to Steam.

You do not have to use exchange. It works with open standards. Or I can specify Outlook Express for you instead.

You seem to be very, very confused. Civ5 has nothing to do with open standards. It's a proprietary game using proprietary middleware running on proprietary operating systems. This is why your analogy (email) is invalid. It's a fully proprietary system.

I agree with you that there could be worse situation. But you again using the logic "it is OK to kill because others kill more". It is better situation for the customers if they have a choice. If somebody wants to have CD check then why not? CD check.

Yes, this is brilliant. Lets let uses choose which DRM they would like with their system when they order the game.

"easy" is not the issue here. "easy" is software, not infrastructure. You can go to 2K and download patches for their games. Or if game includes updater you can do it within game. They have infrastructure, they just do not have "steam-like" software that have "autopatch".

easy is exactly the issue. This is the advantage Steam has. Going to the 2K website and finding patches is annoying as all hell. Last I checked, they didn't even how Civ4 patches- - you had to go to Firaxis' website.

And that kind of infrastructure is not sufficient if you do EASY systems like autoupdates, because they spike demand on patch release days. When it forces people to go out of their way to get patches, the load is distributed. When it's an easy auto-update, it spikes. 2K will not have the infrastructure to feed a million downloads in a day, I guarantee you.

No, to lazy. I saw them like in tutorials for how to build .net applications...

I am giving this advice to you, my friend.
And look, I am not saying that Steam is monopoly today, but it is coming close - it has too much influence already.

Successful products receive broad market adoption. Success is not a bad thing.

Based simply on the fact that once you install the game, you do not need to run impulse. That's better DRM for user.

But it doesn't update on its own, that's not better for me.
I don't need to explicitly run Steam either, it runs automatically requiring no intervention on my behalf. This is no harder than Impulse's method. The only real difference is Steam auto-starting also enables other user friendly features, such as auto-patching, friends lists, game invites, messaging, etc.

[MxM]

Great.

Now compare and contrast how much Impulse Reactor uses. If it's anything like Impulse itself, it uses far more resources than Steam.

It uses 0 percent EXACTLY. You see, you do not have to run Impulse to run the game. Only during installation.

That definition should clearly, to any intelligent person, not apply to Steam.

Are you sure? Now a days, nearly every game if it wants to have wide distribution has to be on Steam (with exceptions of things like Statecraft). Steam is coming close to become monopoly.

You seem to be very, very confused. Civ5 has nothing to do with open standards. It's a proprietary game using proprietary middleware running on proprietary operating systems. This is why your analogy (email) is invalid. It's a fully proprietary system.

Strange conversation we are having here:
Me: But you limiting yourself to steam only
You: But steam brings standard
Me: but it is close/propitiatory standard
You: But civ is closed standard
But that's EXACTLY my point! Granted, that currently there is no opens standard for "game matching services", but I still do not like the fact that it is closed and proprietary with steam.

Yes, this is brilliant. Lets let uses choose which DRM they would like with their system when they order the game.

YES! That's essentially what you do when you chose to by Civ IV either as CD, or as Steam game, or as D2D game... Why is it bad when you give customers a choice?

easy is exactly the issue. This is the advantage Steam has. Going to the 2K website and finding patches is annoying as all hell. Last I checked, they didn't even how Civ4 patches- - you had to go to Firaxis' website.

We were talking about infrastructure, not easiness of use. Do not change the topic. For me the easiest thing to use, would be in-game patch checker.

And that kind of infrastructure is not sufficient if you do EASY systems like autoupdates, because they spike demand on patch release days. When it forces people to go out of their way to get patches, the load is distributed. When it's an easy auto-update, it spikes. 2K will not have the infrastructure to feed a million downloads in a day, I guarantee you.

Sorry, but I do not believe you. 2K is a big publisher and they have capabilities of doing it on multiple games, including those with in-game patching systems.

Successful products receive broad market adoption. Success is not a bad thing.

I am not blaming Steam here in the least. I am blaming publisher for limiting game just to steam. Choice is usually a good thing.

But it doesn't update on its own, that's not better for me.
I don't need to explicitly run Steam either, it runs automatically requiring no intervention on my behalf. This is no harder than Impulse's method. The only real difference is Steam auto-starting also enables other user friendly features, such as auto-patching, friends lists, game invites, messaging, etc.

Again, you are confirming what I am saying. Different people have different preference. I do not want to use Steam if I have option to use Impulse. I do not care AT ALL about things like friends list, game invites, messaging (I do not play MP). Impulse is faster (for me) and it does not take any resources to run the game. You preferences are different. But 2K made choices for both of us. You are glad (because it coincided with your choice) I understand that. For you Steam is the best thing since the sliced bread, I get it. But you are refusing to see and understand the other side of people who prefer things differently.

[Asher]

It uses 0 percent EXACTLY. You see, you do not have to run Impulse to run the game. Only during installation.

You're confusing Impulse Reactor with GOO.

Isn't Impulse Reactor a Steamworks competitor?

Are you sure? Now a days, nearly every game if it wants to have wide distribution has to be on Steam (with exceptions of things like Statecraft). Steam is coming close to become monopoly.

But those games are available elsewhere, not just on Steam. Name one huge title you need to buy through Steam.

I can name a couple massive games not on Steam: Starcraft II and World of Warcraft, BTW...

Strange conversation we are having here:
Me: But you limiting yourself to steam only
You: But steam brings standard
Me: but it is close/propitiatory standard
You: But civ is closed standard
But that's EXACTLY my point! Granted, that currently there is no opens standard for "game matching services", but I still do not like the fact that it is closed and proprietary with steam.

Uhhh. You don't seem to understand.

I'm not talking about standard as in ISO or ECMA. I'm saying it's nice as a user because everyone I know seems to use it (and the vast majority like Steam a lot). This is very, very beneficial because of the nature of the service -- friends lists, cross-game invites, messaging, etc. Those kinds of services are completely useless with fragmented user bases.

YES! That's essentially what you do when you chose to by Civ IV either as CD, or as Steam game, or as D2D game... Why is it bad when you give customers a choice?

This is patently false. Civ IV from all of those methods contains the EXACT SAME DRM. Do some research. The only reason the Steam/D2D versions no longer require CDs is because of the patch they made so the CD versions also don't require CDs...it's 100% the same codebase, the same DRM.

We were talking about infrastructure, not easiness of use. Do not change the topic. For me the easiest thing to use, would be in-game patch checker.

Ease of use drives infrastructure. I was plenty clear here. Games that automatically check for updates and deliver updates right after they're released require FAR more infrastructure than a terribly-designed websites that users hate to use and have to actively check for updates to their games.

Sorry, but I do not believe you. 2K is a big publisher and they have capabilities of doing it on multiple games, including those with in-game patching systems.

Name them.

I am not blaming Steam here in the least. I am blaming publisher for limiting game just to steam. Choice is usually a good thing.

Yes, I'm sure most of us would agree that Firaxis should be spend its time writing and maintaining different branches of their code to use different DRM schemes rather than improving gameplay.

Again, you are confirming what I am saying. Different people have different preference. I do not want to use Steam if I have option to use Impulse. I do not care AT ALL about things like friends list, game invites, messaging (I do not play MP). Impulse is faster (for me) and it does not take any resources to run the game. You preferences are different. But 2K made choices for both of us. You are glad (because it coincided with your choice) I understand that. For you Steam is the best thing since the sliced bread, I get it. But you are refusing to see and understand the other side of people who prefer things differently.

It doesn't matter if you see things differently. It's impractical to implement multiple builds of the game for multiple platforms, considering Impulse is almost a non-factor. I do not think you understand how few people use Impulse/D2D compared to Steam.

There's a handful of tinfoil-hat wearing ninnies complaining about being FORCED AT GUNPOINT to install free software to play a game, software that happened to save Firaxis time and money in utilizing. You guys are a very vocal, very annoying minority without a real complaint aside from huffing and puffing and being all teary-eyed at the prospect of having a system using 3% of your RAM up. It's pathetic, TBH.

[MxM]

You're confusing Impulse Reactor with GOO.

Isn't Impulse Reactor a Steamworks competitor?

You right, I was talking about DRM, so GOO would be more appropriate (Hell, first I misspelled it, and then confused with GOO)

But those games are available elsewhere, not just on Steam. Name one huge title you need to buy through Steam.

I see you pont, however, consider the following example:
In US, Walmart comes quite closet to monopoly on selling cheap goods. Yes, you can buy those goods in other stores as well, but it does not change the fact that Walmart still is the main player. (BTW, in US being monopoly is not against law, what is against law is monopoly practices i.e. using monopoly power to kill competition, this is why Walmart continue to exist, but this is a side note). Same with Steam. You do not have to be the only online distributor.

I can name a couple massive games not on Steam: Starcraft II and World of Warcraft, BTW...

Sure, but again, monopoly is not something that has 100% of the market, only something that has large control of the market. It may have only 50% of the market for example. And in online delivery I suspect Steam is the power to recon with.

But in any case, I do not argue that Steam is monopoly, just that it is coming close.

There are positive effects of monopoly for costumers, like standardization that you mentioned before. But there are long terms negative effects as well, which usually outweighs the positives.

Uhhh. You don't seem to understand.

I'm not talking about standard as in ISO or ECMA. I'm saying it's nice as a user because everyone I know seems to use it (and the vast majority like Steam a lot). This is very, very beneficial because of the nature of the service -- friends lists, cross-game invites, messaging, etc. Those kinds of services are completely useless with fragmented user bases.

I am not arguing with this. Standardization is good. But closed standard is less good than open one. If there was open standard, then one could use XFire and invite somebody from Steam... But of course, Steam being bigger and near monopoly would not permit that. The standard is locked to Steam.

This is patently false. Civ IV from all of those methods contains the EXACT SAME DRM. Do some research. The only reason the Steam/D2D versions no longer require CDs is because of the patch they made so the CD versions also don't require CDs...it's 100% the same codebase, the same DRM.

The patch IS removal of DRM. Civ IV DRM was based on CD check. When CD check is removed, different mechanism is required. With Steam it is done through Steam (though it may contain additional DRM, I do not know. I also do not know how D2D handles it)

Ease of use drives infrastructure. I was plenty clear here. Games that automatically check for updates and deliver updates right after they're released require FAR more infrastructure than a terribly-designed websites that users hate to use and have to actively check for updates to their games.

I do not think that main bandwidth is used to check for update as oppose to download the updates. Just to check it is minuscule compared to downloading.

Name them.

Wiki is my friend. Most of them are not Steam specific. In fact I think only Civ V is.

Yes, I'm sure most of us would agree that Firaxis should be spend its time writing and maintaining different branches of their code to use different DRM schemes rather than improving gameplay.

Somehow it was never a problem even for low budget games... For civ V it would be in the noise, more over I am not even sure that Firaxis would do that. It could be 2K or even Steam/D2D directly for the download versions of the game.

It doesn't matter if you see things differently. It's impractical to implement multiple builds of the game for multiple platforms, considering Impulse is almost a non-factor. I do not think you understand how few people use Impulse/D2D compared to Steam.

Thus the power of monopoly.
And people still use CD. LOTS of them

There's a handful of tinfoil-hat wearing ninnies complaining about being FORCED AT GUNPOINT to install free software to play a game, software that happened to save Firaxis time and money in utilizing. You guys are a very vocal, very annoying minority without a real complaint aside from huffing and puffing and being all teary-eyed at the prospect of having a system using 3% of your RAM up. It's pathetic, TBH.

Please, don't through unnecessary insult. Even if those people are in minority, (which by the way I am not sure, because still CD sales are very big) you think they are not allowed to voice their opinion?
Which country/culture are you from? May be there is a difference between us in understanding the values of society in freedom of expression and in freedom of choice.

[Asher]

I cannot argue with you anymore. Your definition of "monopoly" is patently absurd, and your complaints about Steam not being an open standard (seeing as there is, admittedly, no open standard for this) are just bizarre.

[MxM]

I cannot argue with you anymore. Your definition of "monopoly" is patently absurd, and your complaints about Steam not being an open standard (seeing as there is, admittedly, no open standard for this) are just bizarre.

That's not my definition of monopoly. Read more about this, really. But I am tired from this discussion too. Let's close it.

[Zoetstofzoetje]

The whole discussion is academic.

The publisher made a choice. The only thing we can do is vote with our feet (e.g. money), end of story.

[MxM]

The publisher made a choice. The only thing we can do is vote with our feet (e.g. money), end of story.

And we can talk about it until we bored to death each other. That's what we do, anyway, here on forums.

[Wyrda Edocsil]

(BTW, in US being monopoly is not against law, what is against law is monopoly practices i.e. using monopoly power to kill competition, this is why Walmart continue to exist, but this is a side note).

Actually, monopolies are illegal in the U.S., just with a slightly different definition than the one you mentioned above. That is why Bell Telephone no longer exists, and Bill Gates had to save Apple from bankruptcy.

[Hemtroll]

I'm not going to jump in halfway through the discussion because I haven't read the entire thread but I have to say I am absolutely disgusted by all the casual pirates and plain entitled people in the Civ community in general. Steam has been around for almost exactly seven years and it's done absolute wonders for PC gaming in general.

People who not only pirate great games like Civ but actively and proudly boast about it are hurting PC gaming more than Steam ever has. Just because Firaxis made a decision to implement Steamworks features (and thereby Steam) into Civ V doesn't mean you have any right to pirate the game as a protest or for any other reason.

[SSBLoveU]

Hold on while I am loading the game . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . let me click on the game . . . . . . . . . . . . . Oh, now it's loading . . . . couple of more clicks . . . . . . . It's the old man again . . . . almost there . . . a couple of more clicks . . . oh, I think I started the game on too low a level . . . I agree, using STEAM was most likely a business deal. So, just nothing but the truth. And remember, this is only the first week for how many users . . . ?

[Asher]

Actually, monopolies are illegal in the U.S., just with a slightly different definition than the one you mentioned above. That is why Bell Telephone no longer exists, and Bill Gates had to save Apple from bankruptcy.

Monopolies are not illegal in the US. MxM was right.