What Advantages Has STEAM Brought to 2K, Firaxis and the Civilization Franchise?

[Ming]

Being forced to something generate hate

Yeah... HATE... what a joke.
It's just a video game. You don't HAVE to do anything, or are FORCED to do anything. If Steam isn't your thing, THEN Don't buy the game. Sure, they could have done things differently, but that's the CHOICE they made, and you have the CHOICE whether to buy or not.

I'm not a big fan of Steam, but I wanted the game, so I got it. I'm not going to cry like a stuck pig about it. Not everything in life is exactly like you would want it. Deal with it or simply don't buy the game.

[MxM]

Steam is far less restrictive than all of the other DRM on other games you've been happily buying without complaint for years (SecuROM, etc). You can still buy it on CD/DVD.

And while all of that you listed is good, that could have been done differently and less restrictive to just Steam. You behave as if all those things has never been done outside of steam.

Many cannot be done outside of Steam (eg, unified PC gaming friends lists & invites).

Not true. There are other programs that does the same functionality, may be even better. For example, Civ V could have asked to install XFire during installation.

Without using Steam, the development effort and infrastructure required for Firaxis is far, far larger than with Steam.

Yes, but a) for things like communication they could use FREE programs, like XFire. For things like patching, it is actually cheaper for 2K to use their own system THAT ALREADY EXISTS for patches than to rely on third party and pay for it .

Again, anti-piracy is the only real "perceived" benefit you "get". "Get" is in quotes, because DRM harms the paying customers, not actually giving them a benefit.

[Asher]

Not true. There are other programs that does the same functionality, may be even better. For example, Civ V could have asked to install XFire during installation.

XFire does not do the same thing, and is an utter abomination. It doesn't integrate nicely inside of games, it's a hideous third-party app that unreliably works by scraping process lists and intercepting system events. I refuse to install such crap on my system. It is guaranteed to hurt performance more than Steam ever will.

Yes, but a) for things like communication they could use FREE programs, like XFire. For things like patching, it is actually cheaper for 2K to use their own system THAT ALREADY EXISTS for patches than to rely on third party and pay for it .

What gives you the idea that they pay to use the Steam patching mechanism?

It's not cheaper to maintain and pay for the bandwidth for systems that are largely peak-traffic driven.

Again, anti-piracy is the only real "perceived" benefit you "get". "Get" is in quotes, because DRM harms the paying customers, not actually giving them a benefit.

You get anti-piracy no matter if you use Steam or not. At least with Steam it's a reasonable policy that allows you to install on multiple computers with ease.

[MxM]

XFire does not do the same thing, and is an utter abomination. It doesn't integrate nicely inside of games, it's a hideous third-party app that unreliably works by scraping process lists and intercepting system events. I refuse to install such crap on my system. It is guaranteed to hurt performance more than Steam ever will.

Then you understand problem with steam when it is FORCED on you to be installed, don't you? I for example, I have no issues with XFire, but I don't have to install it or run it. I do have issues with Steam, however, but I HAVE to install it and run it.

What gives you the idea that they pay to use the Steam patching mechanism?

There are no free meals. Somebody have to pay for the bandwidth.

You get anti-piracy no matter if you use Steam or not.

Oh, I know. But that's the paradox of the situation. Steam is perceived as better, harder to break DRM, (you have to run third party software, so simple "no CD" patches do not work), but it will still be broken by hackers.

At least with Steam it's a reasonable policy that allows you to install on multiple computers with ease.

So you are OK with logic "it is OK to kill people because others kill even more people than I do"? There are BETTER DRMs, and there is NO DRM option as well. Both of those preferable to Steam option.

[Dr Strangelove]

I don't like the idea that I can't control what updates I load. If the game runs fine for me why should I have to wait for a download to finish a patch that fixes someone else's problem everytime I start the game? There have also been times when steam or the local internet have been down, interfering with my game play.

[Asher]

I don't like the idea that I can't control what updates I load. If the game runs fine for me why should I have to wait for a download to finish a patch that fixes someone else's problem everytime I start the game? There have also been times when steam or the local internet have been down, interfering with my game play.

You can turn off the patching if you don't want it. So you can control.

Thank you for taking the time to look into this before complaining.

[Asher]

Then you understand problem with steam when it is FORCED on you to be installed, don't you? I for example, I have no issues with XFire, but I don't have to install it or run it. I do have issues with Steam, however, but I HAVE to install it and run it.

XFire is useless, performance-hogging, hacky bloatware, Steam is not.

There are no free meals. Somebody have to pay for the bandwidth.

Steam provides the service and the updates because they get a cut from the sales through the Steam service. The companies do not pay for bandwidth.

So you are OK with logic "it is OK to kill people because others kill even more people than I do"? There are BETTER DRMs, and there is NO DRM option as well. Both of those preferable to Steam option.

I strongly disagree. SecuROM is far, far worse than Steam. Look into it.

Yes, I would love games without DRM. But that discussion is misplaced here -- Civ 5 was going to ship with DRM, Steam or not. So don't whine about it here, it's not Steam-specific.

[Asher]

dp

[Asher]

Examples of why SecuROM is far worse:

Stringent limits on activations (2 usually)
Constant need for re-activations (eg, Mass Effect every 10 days)
Does not allow you to play the game at all if you have explicit network congestion notification turned on in Windows Vista/7
It prevents the game from loading if you have some disk drive emulators and some debugging software installed on your computer. This has bitten me several times personally. If you had Process Explorer installed, you had to kill Process Explorer then reboot your computer before you could even play a SecuROM game. It was ridiculous.

So all of this whining about Steam DRM? Hilarious.

[MxM]

XFire is useless, performance-hogging, hacky bloatware, Steam is not.

You are missing the point comletely. I am not discussing which program is better, you could use it OR NOT - that's the point. It is optional. There are other similar programs:
GameRanger
GameSpy Arcade
HLSW
Kali
there are others...
ALL of them are available for free. You can optionally run them or not. With steam you HAVE to run it.

Steam provides the service and the updates because they get a cut from the sales through the Steam service. The companies do not pay for bandwidth.

For the game which is bought on steam, sure. But what about games that are bought elsewere, why would steam provide downloads for free? There are NO free meals, it is included in price of the game somewhere.

I strongly disagree. SecuROM is far, far worse than Steam. Look into it.

What? Where did I mention SecuROM? There are better options. One is Reaktor. Another is absence of any software checking DRM in game (one would just loging to website first time to download game, like in Impulse).

[Dinner]

Well, for Firaxis/2k it is probably getting the same money from the customers,
while having less costs (after all for those who buy the game on Steam [paying the same price or even more, than offline]
no DVDs need to be produced and shipped...which probably also results in 2k/Firaxis getting more money out of the deal [which might be enough revenue to be able to forget those customers who don´t buy the game because of steam])

Another benefit, of course is that, via steam, Firaxis don´t have to care about the mechanisms of update distributions
(like providing server, porogramming the update mechanisms etc. ) as this probably already is included with steam (and the programming libraries it provides)

Not to mention they make even more money from the downloadable content. I can see why the companies like Steam but as a consumer I'm not seeing that it's helping me very much.

[Asher]

You are missing the point comletely. I am not discussing which program is better, you could use it OR NOT - that's the point. It is optional. There are other similar programs:
GameRanger
GameSpy Arcade
HLSW
Kali
there are others...
ALL of them are available for free. You can optionally run them or not. With steam you HAVE to run it.

All of those are crap and useless BECAUSE they are non-standard. I don't know a SINGLE person who uses them (I'm sure you use all of them, but you're in a distinct minority).

Xfire brags about how many registered accounts they have, but a VERY TINY percentage of them are actually active. Steam probably has 40-50x more active users, if not more.

It's the standardization which makes the service worthwhile and useful. Fragmented userbases using craptastic programs help no one. Yes, they're free, but what good are they if no one I know uses them? Everyone who has Civ5 has Steam. Steam is FREE. Stop whining about it.

For the game which is bought on steam, sure. But what about games that are bought elsewere, why would steam provide downloads for free? There are NO free meals, it is included in price of the game somewhere.

It's part of the package. Steam wants users to install Steam, Civ V bundles Steam with it. THEY BOTH WIN. Steam gets more install base which means more users, which means more potential future sales. Steam also gets a cut of DLC sales which will be distributed through...wait for it...Steam. Further, Steam already has massive infrastructure and bandwidth and doesn't need to invest in anything further just to support Civ5. Steam has this massive infrastructure to support spike in downloads around game launches, which are usually pretty spaced out (Civ5 didn't have any real competition).

This is business 101, no?

What? Where did I mention SecuROM? There are better options. One is Reaktor.

Reaktor? That doesn't even seem to be a real DRM company. Why not make up some other names while we're at it?

SecuROM is, as far as I know, the only popular third-party DRM TakeTwo could realistically use aside from Steam. And Steam is the better option.

Another is absence of any software checking DRM in game (one would just loging to website first time to download game, like in Impulse).

That's funny, my Dragon Age: Origins copy from Impulse has ****ing nasty DRM. In fact, I had to call EA to let me play my own damn game after I upgraded my motherboard, CPU, and RAM. Impulse itself doesn't have any DRM, because Stardock has no vested interest in DRM. They make crappy games to a niche, wealthy market who will pay anyway.

[MxM]

All of those are crap and useless BECAUSE they are non-standard. I don't know a SINGLE person who uses them (I'm sure you use all of them, but you're in a distinct minority).

Xfire brags about how many registered accounts they have, but a VERY TINY percentage of them are actually active. Steam probably has 40-50x more active users, if not more.

You are still miss the point. I am not talking about if Steam is better than all those communication platform. I just do not like the fact that it is combined with DRM that requires to run it each time. And that you do not have option not to install it. It does not even matter if it is good or bad. The fact is that there are other alternative to approach this which are better for customer. Note I am saying approach, I do not want to come into pointless comparison of which service is better.

It's the standardization which makes the service worthwhile and useful. Fragmented userbases using craptastic programs help no one. Yes, they're free, but what good are they if no one I know uses them? Everyone who has Civ5 has Steam.

Standard is good, monopolies is bad. I would rather have standard but with option to use any provider or not to use it at all. Things like e-mail are standard, but providers are not.

Steam is FREE. Stop whining about it.

I am not wining, I would actually chose Steam over CD (the one that you have to insert into drive to play) anyway. But it does not mean that things can not be improved or that I do not understand people who would chose otherwise. Steam is not the best approach there is, there are better approaches for customer. But it is THE BEST approach for 2K in terms of piracy (at least it is perceived as it is). And this is the main reason of having Steam by many companies.

It's part of the package. Steam wants users to install Steam, Civ V bundles Steam with it. THEY BOTH WIN. Steam gets more install base which means more users, which means more potential future sales. Steam also gets a cut of DLC sales which will be distributed through...wait for it...Steam.

Or, I know, that Steam wins, you do not have to convince me on that. That however is not the topic of this discussion.

Further, Steam already has massive infrastructure and bandwidth and doesn't need to invest in anything further just to support Civ5.

So is 2K, so is D2D, so is Stardoc, so is gazillion other less restrictive options...

Reaktor? That doesn't even seem to be a real DRM company. Why not make up some other names while we're at it?

Sorry I misspelled (I was sure that they were spelling like that). I meant Impulse Reactor.

[Dinner]

All of those are crap and useless BECAUSE they are non-standard. I don't know a SINGLE person who uses them (I'm sure you use all of them, but you're in a distinct minority).

You don't know anyone who uses GameSpy? Gee, like does anyone at Apolyton play Civ4?

[St Jon]

Sad, I was looking forward to playing Civ V but I guess I am just going to have to wait for half-way decent pirated copy to avoid all this nonsense.

On-line activation is one thing but having to maintain a connection for an entire, SP, game due to only being able to purchase an incomplete install is way too high a price for me to pay.