Steamed!!!!!!

[SpencerH]

Irrelevant to the issue.

[Jon Miller]

why would I bother to sell a game? They aren't worth THAT much money.

Exactly, they are worth pennies on the dollar.

I never sell my old games.

I give them away (the people I give them to might sell them...).

JM

[Jon Miller]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/25/

There is some truth to this.

JM

[Hauldren Collider]

Yes it is, under the DMCA. It's just as illegal as backing up your DVDs by ripping them.

There's no copy protection on Civ IV. Just the CD. Anyway I have no guilt because I don't even have a CD drive on my laptop so if I want to play it without the external drive I need the patch anyways. It's not on the same level as torrenting textbooks

While you're trying to troll me on being inconsistent about piracy, keep in mind that I actually bought the game and have the CD with me, but lack a CD drive.

[Asher]

There's no copy protection on Civ IV. Just the CD.

That's copy protection. That's the purpose of the CD check. Removing the CD check from the binary constitutes circumventing the copy protection mechanism, which is explicitly illegal under the DMCA.

No-CD cracks are illegal in the USA, but not in Canada. That's all there is to it.

It's completely identical, in practical terms, to my Kindle situation. What you're doing causes zero loss to the creator, what I did caused zero loss to the creator. That's the real-world effect of piracy -- are you pirating instead of paying? If you are, then it's piracy. If you would honestly never pay for it to begin with, no one loses.

[rah]

I've never sold any but if I could have got some of my money back for M2TW I would have. If I buy CIV5 and it's a POS, I have no way to recoup my losses. That seems absurd.

One thing I didn't consider. While I wouldn't bother selling a used game since they do only pay pennies on the dollar, when I was younger I used to scrounge through the used bins for some cheap bargains. I guess if the sale methodology is mostly on-line, those used bins will disappear.

[Al B. Sure!]

Irrelevant to the issue.

Huh? You said you don't sell games but it would be nice to have that option if Civ is a piece of ****... I said you can find that out before committing money to it.

[Al B. Sure!]

One thing I didn't consider. While I wouldn't bother selling a used game since they do only pay pennies on the dollar, when I was younger I used to scrounge through the used bins for some cheap bargains. I guess if the sale methodology is mostly on-line, those used bins will disappear.

Rah, what you're forgetting though is that the new bargains are online! Steam has so many sales and it has the equivalent of a used game bin. You can get games like Thief 3 and Aliens vs Predator for like $2.99 or something on Steam.

This is better. Instead of having to scrounge through bins to find whatever is randomly in there, you can get critically-acclaimed games more easily online.

[rah]

Actually I did consider that, (since I've been bombarded with steam offers) but in the game stores, new games would hit the used bins on day 2, (not in great quantities but if you were paying attention) and yes, I know the online auction sites provide similar services, but I do have many fond memories of digging through the bins and finding bargains. Yes, I'm probably too old.

[Snotty]

We dont have bins as such, rather a large stand of 2nd hand games. I trawl for pre owned xbox games out of habit now. The thrill of finding some older game at bargain price surely must be the reason most people like shopping so much.

Ive found some real gems (and then gone on to rave about them to my friends)

When you consider a lot of older games simply dont get the valuable shelf space that new releases command...

[SpencerH]

Huh? You said you don't sell games but it would be nice to have that option if Civ is a piece of ****... I said you can find that out before committing money to it.

The game site reviews for M2TW were, per usual, outstanding. Players reviews were mixed, but based on the previous games I gave the TW designers the benefit of the doubt. Despite my diligence, M2TW was a POS (for various reasons) but at least I could give it away if I had wanted. With CIV5 that wont be possible.

In any case, whether I can read reviews or try a demo is irrelevant. There is no other form of copyright protection that allows the copyright owner to prevent the sale of legally held copies of the copyrighted material (at least I cant think of any). The only reason it exists for software is the incompetence of our government to protect the rights of the citizens.

[vee4473]

BTW, to the idiots claiming Steam uses up too much memory, blahblahblah.

It's not just there for fun. The steam client contains code the game uses, and would have to include anyway. Civ5 is using Steam for its API and components -- it's doing friends lists, matchmaking, achievements, voice chat, some multiplayer code, etc that would exist anyway. That memory is going to be used by the game either way, and if anything Steam is probably more efficient at its code as it's been tweaked for years and specifically designed to use minimal amounts of memory and resources.

Asher, I know you are a strong-arm poster here, but I think there is either a point being missed here or one that you choose to ignore simply because you already use Steam.

Whether Steam gathers this or that, whether it is malware or not or sends my dick size to playgirl is less of the point I think. It is simply that it is a third party pushed into your face so that you can play the game. If you are already a buyer from steam, then obiously you have no problem with it.

But, if Steam never interested you and you had no interest in it at this point, then having it (a seemingly unnessecary component) thrust at you as a "download or don't play" aspect is disturbing. Not because i'm afraid it will send my SSN to anyone or install something that will secretly collect data to destroy me, but because it forces you to do something you otherwise have no interest in.

Up until now, there were plenty of things that were optional installs. Gamespy etc... If you wanted the services offered then you agreed to take part. That's being systematically removed lately.

If this type of thing is accepted, then what else in your life are willing to accept in this vein? I know that's more of a principle type of thing and it won't really matter, like anything else similar.

That's really it, regardless of how reputable it is. I'd hope a gaming enthusiast like you could see what i'm saying.

[vee4473]

Also, even if you are a supporter of Steam, I would hope that you would be of the mind to say something along the lines of "Yeah, I love Steam, but I disagree with being forced to use it to play a game".

That type of thing. It's very difficult to oppose a seemingly obscure or innocuous thing on the basis of principle and those that do such tings are usually burned at the stake or ignored by the masses who just have to have whatever it is that is being offered.

I guess that's all I have to say. I guess.

Edit: There was a time when gamers relished choice. Scratch that, not even gamers, people in general. It's actually a mind boggler that so many seem to be defending lack of choice lately. Actually arguing in favor of and defending being forced to do something.

[Asher]

Asher, I know you are a strong-arm poster here, but I think there is either a point being missed here or one that you choose to ignore simply because you already use Steam.

Whether Steam gathers this or that, whether it is malware or not or sends my dick size to playgirl is less of the point I think. It is simply that it is a third party pushed into your face so that you can play the game. If you are already a buyer from steam, then obiously you have no problem with it.

But, if Steam never interested you and you had no interest in it at this point, then having it (a seemingly unnessecary component) thrust at you as a "download or don't play" aspect is disturbing. Not because i'm afraid it will send my SSN to anyone or install something that will secretly collect data to destroy me, but because it forces you to do something you otherwise have no interest in.

Up until now, there were plenty of things that were optional installs. Gamespy etc... If you wanted the services offered then you agreed to take part. That's being systematically removed lately.

If this type of thing is accepted, then what else in your life are willing to accept in this vein? I know that's more of a principle type of thing and it won't really matter, like anything else similar.

That's really it, regardless of how reputable it is. I'd hope a gaming enthusiast like you could see what i'm saying.

I see what you're saying, but it doesn't make it right.

Steam is a lot more than just a store. I do not think most of you comprehend that. Steam is an environment and toolkit. By using Steam, Firaxis has chosen to save time, effort, and money by using features Steam already implements very, very well. Yes, this makes Steam "mandatory".

If you all are seriously bothered by Firaxis using Steam extensively such that it is a mandatory part of Civ5, then might I suggest you lot pool hundreds of thousands of dollars and mail them to Sid Meier with the note that they are to be used to implement multiplayer in Civ5 without the use of Steam. Because that's the kind of cost savings it realizes (not to mention time & complexity savings).

All of this grandstanding is inane and pointless, and it's 100% by people who do not understand what Steam actually is or why it would be required.

This is not about choice. It's about development efficiency and not reinventing the wheel. Yes, Firaxis could've duplicated the functionality of Steam without using Steam, but WHY would they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions(!)) reinventing the wheel all because a bunch of busy-body whiney geeks are opposed to some free software that makes their lives (and frankly, gamers' lives as a whole) a lot easier. I'd prefer if Firaxis spent its time and money implementing the actual game than worrying about implementing boilerplate networking features that have been written and rewritten many, many times by many, many people.

I suppose you are equally livid about not having the choice between OpenGL and DirectX? Havok and PhysX? OpenAL and DirectSound? You're seriously opinionated about Steam vs a home-grown solution, so it's a natural assumption.

[vee4473]

I see what you're saying, but it doesn't make it right.

Steam is a lot more than just a store. I do not think most of you comprehend that. Steam is an environment and toolkit. By using Steam, Firaxis has chosen to save time, effort, and money by using features Steam already implements very, very well. Yes, this makes Steam "mandatory".

If you all are seriously bothered by Firaxis using Steam extensively such that it is a mandatory part of Civ5, then might I suggest you lot pool hundreds of thousands of dollars and mail them to Sid Meier with the note that they are to be used to implement multiplayer in Civ5 without the use of Steam. Because that's the kind of cost savings it realizes (not to mention time & complexity savings).

All of this grandstanding is inane and pointless, and it's 100% by people who do not understand what Steam actually is or why it would be required.

This is not about choice. It's about development efficiency and not reinventing the wheel. Yes, Firaxis could've duplicated the functionality of Steam without using Steam, but WHY would they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions(!)) reinventing the wheel all because a bunch of busy-body whiney geeks are opposed to some free software that makes their lives (and frankly, gamers' lives as a whole) a lot easier. I'd prefer if Firaxis spent its time and money implementing the actual game than worrying about implementing boilerplate networking features that have been written and rewritten many, many times by many, many people.

I suppose you are equally livid about not having the choice between OpenGL and DirectX? Havok and PhysX? OpenAL and DirectSound? You're seriously opinionated about Steam vs a home-grown solution, so it's a natural assumption.

I understand what you are saying too Asher. That's fine, but the point I made isn't innane or whiny. I hate the word whiny being used whenever someone voices an opinion.

If Steam is needed for MP, then why not make it an option to install if you plan on using MP? SP standalone requires no steam, but if you want MP then steam is the client. That's fairer I think.

And I shouldn't have to send Sid any money to develop a game that is in its 5th incarnation and has done fine previously without a forced thrid party install.

Maybe I don't fully understand steam and what it does, but that's also a fairly overused tactic to disregard someone elses opinion. The old "you just don't get it" approach.

Funny, up until now, games have done great without Steam, but i'm supposed to believe that Civ 5 would have cost millions if not for the savior of steam..


all hail.