Why does Ramesses speak in Arabic?

[Taharqa]

Yugoslavs?! Why don't you compare it to Arabs?

The Egyptians are compared with subtropical desert populations similar to the Arabs in complexion in the first chart I showed you, and they don't cluster with them. They cluster with dark-skinned tropical peoples like sub-Saharan Africans and Melanesians.

I'm not having this argument... because you won't listen because you're too caught up in Afrocentric Racism... Stealing MY PEOPLE'S CULTURE AND CIVILIZATION!

Stating the fact that your people have a diverse heritage that is not stealing your modern culture or civilization. And as for the charge of racism, if anything your getting butthurt when confronted with the fact that you are descended in part from tropically adapted (i.e. black) Africans seems borderline racist.

I'll just say this, he's definitely not Black

I am in fact white, but how did you figure out that I wasn't black?

[Al B. Sure!]

Your chart did NOT note any subtropical desert populations similar to the Arabs... American Indians are not similar to Arabs Also, I don't see the need for a correlation between limb length and skin complexion. Third, shut up. I have no time to waste with you. And you should check out the exercise thread in the off-topic. Could do you some good

[Boris Godunov]

I've seen Ramesses' body. He had thin, straight hair, not the thick, dark curly hair that is typical with modern African black people.

The simple fact is that the notion of "race" is actually a fiction, and that whatever racial categories exist today would be meaningless thousands of years ago. Based on the contemporary Egyptian depictions of Ramesses, his skin tone seems much closer to the Civ V video than to a dark-skinned African, so I don't think they've gotten it too far off the mark.

[dregor]

Your chart did NOT note any subtropical desert populations similar to the Arabs... American Indians are not similar to Arabs Also, I don't see the need for a correlation between limb length and skin complexion. Third, shut up. I have no time to waste with you. And you should check out the exercise thread in the off-topic. Could do you some good

This is extremely, extremely childish. Either make your case maturely or don't make it at all.

[Al B. Sure!]

This is extremely, extremely childish. Either make your case maturely or don't make it at all.

Don't ever go into the Off Topic Forum

[Boris Godunov]

Al, this isn't the Off-Topic forum, and it is the general rule that you should behave better here than there.

[Taharqa]

I've seen Ramesses' body. He had thin, straight hair, not the thick, dark curly hair that is typical with modern African black people.

Analyses of Egyptian mummy hairs has shown that the keratin making up the hair follicles has been damaged, possibly due to chemicals used in the mummification process. Damage to the keratin can cause straightening.

The simple fact is that the notion of "race" is actually a fiction, and that whatever racial categories exist today would be meaningless thousands of years ago.

While it is true that human biological variation cannot be accurately described as structuring into "races", it nonetheless exists and there is nothing wrong with discussing it.

Based on the contemporary Egyptian depictions of Ramesses, his skin tone seems much closer to the Civ V video than to a dark-skinned African, so I don't think they've gotten it too far off the mark.

Rameses II as depicted in his own time:


He looks quite dark-skinned to me.

[Al B. Sure!]

How you going to discount art before and now note it? I showed how King Tut and the Egyptians were depicted vastly lighter than the Nubians... funny how you dismiss that but now Egyptian art is sacred.

[Dinner]

He looks quite dark-skinned to me.

A lot of paint pigments darken over time as they get covered in dust and suet. You should see the before and after on the Sistine Chapel and it was only 500 years old compared with many Egyptian paintings which are over 3000 years old.

How you going to discount art before and now note it? I showed how King Tut and the Egyptians were depicted vastly lighter than the Nubians... funny how you dismiss that but now Egyptian art is sacred.

That's because one example helps his case and the other hurts it. Thus the hypocrisy.

On a different note in the 60's and 70's there were a lot of black nationalists in the US trying to claim Egypt was a black country as a way to make up for their perceived lack of early black empires. The reality is there was some interesting stuff going on in sub Sahara Africa (albeit nothing as grand as in Egypt, the mideast, or Greece) so there really is no need to rewrite history with false nationalistic narratives. The basic truth of ancient Egypt is that the closer to the meditarrean coast you got the more "meditarrean" looking the people got and the further south you got the "blacker" the people got so it was more of a mix. There were some Nubian invasions of Egypt at times but they were always considered foreign barbarians so it's hard to claim they were Egyptian especially when the Egyptians quickly tossed the Nubian invaders out.

[Boris Godunov]

Analyses of Egyptian mummy hairs has shown that the keratin making up the hair follicles has been damaged, possibly due to chemicals used in the mummification process. Damage to the keratin can cause straightening.

Source this, please.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/mummies-and-mummy-hair-from-ancient-egypt/

The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the site were cynotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard through dynastic times . . .

Hair samples from Egyptian mummies have consistently shown to be Caucasian, not Negroid. They've even examined the roots and found natural red, auburn and even blonde coloring. And this is confirmed by experts who are fully able to take into account the effects of the mummification process.

He looks quite dark-skinned to me.

1) There's no way to know if that is really depicting Ramesses II, as he had a penchant for having his name put on the monuments of past Pharoahs as a means of exaggerating his reputation;
2) As was pointed out, paint pigments darken over time;
3) Photographs like that are susceptible to darkening as well, either via natural lighting effects or through tampering.
4) His skin tone there is not necessarily indicative of him being ethnically black. He did live, after all, in a sun-drenched area and would likely sport a considerable tan. Consider this:



That guy's skin tone is about the same, and he certainly wouldn't be considered "black" by modern standards (He's Jewish).

[Taharqa]

Source this, please.

Will do:

However, infrared spectroscopy indicated a partial disorganization of keratins close to the hair surface through polypeptide bond breakage. Elemental mapping showed a strongly heterogeneous distribution which can be related to mummification and cosmetic treatments.

---Bertrand, L., J. Doucet, P. Dumas, A. Simionovici, G. Tsoucaris, and P. Walter. "Microbeam synchrotron imaging of hairs from Ancient Egyptian mummies." Journal of Synchroton Radiation 10 (September 2003): 387-92.

They've even examined the roots and found natural red, auburn and even blonde coloring. And this is confirmed by experts who are fully able to take into account the effects of the mummification process.

It's true that pheomelanin (the pigment which can produce blond or red hair when present in sufficient quantities) has been found in Egyptian hairs, but even dark-haired people have some pheomelanin.

The common misconception that all hair turns red over archaeological timescales has found its way into archaeological folklore. Whilst certain environments such as those producing bog bodies are known to yield hair of a red-brown color, in part because of the breakdown of organic matter and presence of humic acids which impart a brown color to recovered remains, it has commonly been assumed that this happens to all archaeological hair. This concept has been perpetuated by popular nicknames such as "Ginger"--affectionately given to the Predynastic burial with red hair on display in the mummy rooms at the British Museum.

Potential change to hair color can be explained more scientifically by examining the chemistry of melanin which is responsible for hair color in life. All hair contains a mixture in varying concentration of both black-brown eumelanin and red-yellow phaeomelanin pigments, which are susceptible to differential chemical change under certain extreme burial conditions (for example wet reducing conditions, or dry oxidising conditions). Importantly, phaeomelanin is much more stable to environmental conditions than eumelanin, hence the reactions occurring in the burial environment favor the preservation of phaeomelanin, revealing and enhancing the red/ yellow color of hairs containing this pigment. Color changes occur slowly under dry oxidising conditions, such as in the burials in sand at Hierakonpolis. Whether the conditions within the wood and plaster coffin contributed to accelerated color change, or whether this individual naturally had more phaeomelanin pigmentation in his hair is hard to say without further analysis.

---http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/hierakonpolis/field/hair.html

As for the texture, people have actually measured the diameters of Egyptian hairs' cross-sections using a device called a trichometer, and these measurements have produced an average index of 60.02, which is close to the sub-Saharan average.

Sources:

Conti-Fuhrman, Anna, and Emma Rabino Massa. "Preliminary note on the ultrastructure of the hair from an Egyptian mummy using the Scanning Electron Microscope." Journal of Human Evolution 1, no. 5 (September 1972): 487.

Massa, E. R., and M. Massali. "Early Egyptian mummy hairs: Tensile strength tests, optical and scanning electron microscopy." Journal of Human Evolution 9 (1980): 133-7.

[Boris Godunov]

Will do:


---Bertrand, L., J. Doucet, P. Dumas, A. Simionovici, G. Tsoucaris, and P. Walter. "Microbeam synchrotron imaging of hairs from Ancient Egyptian mummies." Journal of Synchroton Radiation 10 (September 2003): 387-92.

What dishonest quote mining... merely from the abstract! And that doesn't even support your claim! The full abstract:

Abstract: Developments in microfocus synchrotron techniques have led to new results regarding the long-term alteration of archaeological samples of biological origin. Here, ancient hair samples from two Egyptian mummies have been analyzed using a conjunction of structural and elemental synchrotron methods. In this favored context of conservation, structural analysis revealed a remarkable preservation of keratin supramolecular organization at any observed length scale. Bulk keratin structure has therefore not been modified significantly over 2000 years. However, infrared spectroscopy indicated a partial disorganization of keratins close to the hair surface through polypeptide bond breakage. Elemental mapping showed a strongly heterogeneous distribution which can be related to mummification and cosmetic treatments.

In other words, the structure of the hairs are unchanged to the eye for 2,000 years, it took infrared spectroscopy imaging to detect the differences. You just shot down your own claim with your own source!

Ok, Al, I'm sorry I chastised you. Taharqa is a liar and deserves whatever he gets. Have at him!

[Taharqa]

In other words, the structure of the hairs are unchanged to the eye for 2,000 years, it took infrared spectroscopy imaging to detect the differences.

It said that there was some damage, even if other parts of the structure were preserved.

[Boris Godunov]

Dude, you've been caught. You deliberately presented a quote-mined sentence from an abstract while not provided the part that undermines your case. Even what you quoted does not support your assertion that it shows hair went from curly to straight. I'm not going to waste time arguing with someone who lies to try and prove points.

[Al B. Sure!]

Ok, Al, I'm sorry I chastised you. Taharqa is a liar and deserves whatever he gets. Have at him!

Dude, I saw his picture. He's blonde and blue-eyed It's rare to see a Nordic Afro-centric. I can't help but mock someone like that.