About terrain, resources, economy

[amitourlo]

The attached file is presented now a bit further
(I'm sorry ) and is still called economy.doc. (I just cut the first line)
It presents my ideas with pictures that is why I prefer not to develop it here.

So download it.

[Nikolai]

You're a bit late, but if you're lucky, Soren & co might use some of it. But I see you point to civfanatics, if you posted it early enough, it might have been noted already.

[Trifna]

amitourlo, there is some interesting things in there, should it be looked with cIV in mind or in itself. But... how can this be included in a game played by kids and the global public?...

Do you see a way to incorporate these things in a simple way fitting to a general audience?

[Max Sinister]

I read it and found it interesting (maybe a bit too detailed - how far does it matter whether I build my city on sandstone or granite?), but I have one question: What is the Maslow pyramid? I think I heard that term somewhere, but can't tell what it is...

[Trifna]

Maslow's pyramid is veeeery interesting
Basically, it is the order in which different desires are fulfilled. Survival before safety, safety before love, love...

Anyway, don't waste your time listening me and go here

[Shogun Gunner]

I read your document, amitourlo. It's a very detailed model you describe, but I wonder the same thing that Max Sinister and Trifna ask -- how will this be incorporated in the game?

Again, very logical and an interesting read. I commend you on your detailed analysis.

[amitourlo]

To answer to people, who thinks my system is too detailed, I would say that the level of detail is adjustable as I explain it in my document.
You can either say
Housing-->Underground exploitation-->Stones or you can add a level and distinguish the different kinds of stones (granite, clay, simple stone...).
And it can have a cultural interest to know what is the material used for you house. Wood is often used in artic areas or equatorial areas, concrete in modern society, granite in medieval cities... In order to establish the offer and supply for each city and for each resource in the most detailed system it is essential to know what kind of material is used for the buildings. With the simplified system only, it is naturally far less important.

To anwer to people, who thinks it is relative imposible to incoporate this system in the game, I think it is maybe not as so hard as developping an AI because lots of my suggests are mathematical. :
"Rien ne se crée, rien ne se perd, tout se transforme" in other words nothing can be created, nothing can be losed, all things are transformed.
I will think about it a little more to perform my answer and do anoteher post.

[amitourlo]

here is a short example in Excel that shows how it would be possible to incorporate the system.
Not so complicated. I spent only 1 hour to do it, so if you want to optimize it, don't hesitate.

Read above all the comments, particularly the comment about shortage.

HERE IS THE EXCEL DOCUMENT TO DOWNLOAD

[amitourlo]

HERE IS THE MAIN FILE TO DOWNLOAD

[Max Sinister]

Yes, now I remember the Maslow pyramid. Now there's the question how to represent it... it's good to describe individuals, but we're talking about masses of people which can't be all simulated...

[Trifna]

amitourlo: Yes, but you just mentioned a general principle of "anything can be simplified". Could you actually show how would be such a model? How would it actually be in the game?

Why?
1- Because there are many ways to simplify a same thing.
2- And sometimes all ways found to simplify things enough lose the whole point and interests of the more complete version at the same time.

There are many examples of such a phenomenon in the development of models for Civ 3, so I would be happy to see what you would propose to modelize this "Maslow phenomenon" which you show here.

[amitourlo]

I will take an example with a 4 level 2 dimensional (an equilateral triangle of side=a ) pyramid.

The first level is represented by the fact that people can have resources corresponding to their needs (food, clothes, manufactured goods,...).

The second level corresponds to the family the health and the activity of the citizen. (have a "nice" job, plenty of children, health...)

The third level corresponds to the membership, culture, sport, spare time group activities....

The fourth level corresponds to the self development, education, art, creativity, spare time lonesome activities.

I suppose that each level is represented by the same height h on the pyramid.

see the picture below

The surface of each level (mathematical formula) is:
for the first degree of the pyramid:
S1=(2*a-2*d)*h/2
with a, a side of the quilateral triangle, and d=sqrt(a²/16-h²), h the height of a level.
You can evaluate each surface, you will have:
S1=43.7% of the total surface of the triangle
S2=31.2% of the total surface of the triangle
S3=18.8% of the total surface of the triangle
S4=6.3% of the total surface of the triangle

So, you have just to determine for each citizen what is the number of levels he can reach.
For example, with such a model, if each citizen has the resources corresponding to its needs (level 1 of the pyramid completed), "only" 43.7% of your population will be happy.

If you manage to complete the level 2, 31.2 %+43,7%=74.9% of you population will be happy (this is just an example, I could have made it else by different operations)

If you succeed in the third level, 93.7% of your population will be happy....


But 2 things:
The first one is that you will never complete the first level for each citizen. (It would be so wonderfull) Consequently, you won't be able to reach 43.7% but a part of that (depending on your success in trade... to get resources). For example, if only 80% of them can reach this level, 35% could become happy thanks to the first level.

The second one is that this little model is based on a fixed height of each level. It would be interessant to modify it in order to change the percentages for each level. In fact, you can choose the percentages that you want. I just take this example beacause it is mathematical.You can take another law of your choice.

Difficulties to define happiness
It is really a philosophical issue to define happiness buts it seems to depend on big factors like governments, family(births, deaths...), health (diseases, wars...) , money (job,...), spare time activities (buildings (colosseum, stadium...), ...).
For example, wars can affect the first level (difficulties to get a resource), the second level (you father dies), the third level (you must go to war instead of watching TV)...
Overpopulation is not obligatory a factor of calamity?. to be rethink...

So if 75% of your population is happy, is that enough?
There is no answer to this question. In fact the only changes will be that there will be more strikes, more corruption, less births... So you will lose lots of money if you don't pay attention to the happiness of your citizens but 100% of hapiness is impossible.

What is your goal as leader of your civilization? The hapiness of your citizens or destroy the others?
That is a private question.

[amitourlo]

I think that finding the good method for managing resources is fundamental.
Indeed, each living being (animal, human being, plant...) passes its time to manage resource in order to live.
Even for a plant, the system is universal:

1) Find the resource (eg:the rain for a plant)
2) Transport the resource (eg:the roots of a plant)
3) Stock the resource (eg:the foliage)
4) Transformation (Manufacturing of the resource) (eg:chimical reaction)
5) Consume the resource

So, as leader of a civilization, it is absolutely normal to pass time to manage you resource! It seems to be more boring than to go to war but it is the same. Each type of unit can be considered as a resource. When you go to war, what are you doing ?
--> You manage your units (you "find" them (produce), you "transport" them, you "stock" them before fighting your ennemy, you can "transform" them (veteran...) and you can "consume" them (death of your unit, dismantel...).

So, managing an army is like managing a resource, especially if munitions and weapons are incorporated in the game. Civilization is a managment game. It is certainly more pleasant (the fascinating of power is so high) to manage an army rather than other resources but without other resources you cannot get a solid army.
That is why a good resource system is obligatory and why I write my system, which is really not so complicated.

.Just see and understand my excel tabular (the terrain.zip attachment) and you will see that the parameters (micromanaging) which can be adjusted (rate of exploitation, rate of manufacturation) in my system are no more complicated than the parameters of Civ 3 .(Specialists, positionning of the citizens on terrains, improvments of terrains). Furthermore, while for Civ 3, you had to scan your city one by one to optimize your citizens because the system was not globalized, I propose to regroup all parameters in only one tabular and the adjustable parameters can also been automatically calculated. (see the case shortage in the tabular). My system is certainly more detailed but not obligatory more complicated

[Trifna]

Ah... now I see what you're up to and get an idea of how you want that.

But still, it is a concept and not HOW the concept would be applied simply. Also, about "management", I agree that all is management but there are different kinds of managements and not all are fun to each person.


Let's try to find a way how Maslow could be brought here and bring something...

Let's say, as a first draft for a model, such a model would consider (to be considered:):
You have a few stages of what can be asked by people. If they have "stage 1", they will ask for certain things. If they have "stage 2", they will make different requests and their acceptance of certain things (like lacking food)wont be the same. For each "stage", they will not give the same result neither. Don't expect people which don't bother about more than food to bother for fluffy things as "how geometry works" (so no science bonus in this society). Of course, this effects happiness and unrest.

Now, you want ressources into this. Let's not simplify the model yet, so we can discuss the system itself. So basically, let's say (the model's draft:):

1- A society is 25% in level 1, 50% in level 2, 15% in level 3 and 10% level 4, then it'd demand 25% of lvl1 needs, 50% lvl 2 needs, etc.
2- Each society sees the demand changing when people (1) get used to what they previously had, (2) see a possibility to get more. Opposite also true (get used to have less, see a possibility they might get less and turn afraid/conservative).
3- The actual ressources: food, steel, whattever... the higher the lvl of a demand, the higher the cost / citizen (they wont eat only what is "more productive", houses with no conveniences wont do anymore, higher luxury demand).





So, does this draft fit your idea? You see, this is not as raw analysis and theoric things to be put in. It needs to be modelized, and especially simplified from its raw analysis in the case of a game (especially if it's not only for a few passionated). WHat I showed above is still not simplified, only grossly modelized.

[Exile]

Enjoying this discussion.

Had to @ "you must go to war instead of watching tv"