Sid Meier's Post-Apocalyptic Civlike Funtime Bash

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Lemmy
But still, a nomadic tribe is basically a moving city that can't build buildings, is that possible in CtP2?
Or, bulidings can be built, but once the city moves, the buildings are lost.
It would make a great trade-off for every player.
Do you move your city to a better place, with less radiation maybe.
Or do you keep your improvements.

Oh the hours I've spent trying to get this one to be possible. The only way I can possibly imagine doing it would be to rewrite the city interface in SLIC, and "messy" doesn't come close to describing it. It may indeed prove impossible, and I for one am not going to waste eight weeks finding out. I think pillaging, slaving and random reproduction would work much more easily, simply, and probably even better in terms of gameplay, except that perhaps you wouldn't be able to choose which units you got. Random elements

Moving cities. Alas, the same flag that gives a city "city" status also freezes it to the floor, allows it to build things and gives it a population. An oversight on the part of Activision no doubt
In fact, the whole reason cities count as units in the first place is an accident. It seems nobody there thought that this could be utilised in another way in the future. And still its so much closer to possible than in any other game ever.

[Cruddy]

One suggestion; all figureheads should be doubled with an odd number of eyes to account for radiation effects.

I think you're all quite mad - but I hope you have fun with it.

[Spiffor]

To me a post apocalyptic Cigame would look about like this :

Scope : Several centuries. We witness clans slowly becoming empires in the shadow of the pre-crisis Civilizations and technology. The game ends at about the time the humanity becomes free of the pre-crisis shadow.

Emphasis put on :

- pre-crisis knowledge from which parts have been saved. Most of the science aspect is not about discovery, it is about recovery (sure, discoveries are needed in order to adapt the old tech to the postapocalytical context)

- scarcity of the population which makes it impossible to restore Civ as it was before. The whole production chain has been broken, and there are just too few people to make it work again. This makes people the most valuable asset in the game.

- general world anarchy until reliable communications are around : "Barbarians" and minor tribes are everywhere, and large empires have to fight against splits.

- Importance of pillage to feed primitive economies.

[Lemmy]

Another thought:
You build your empire by uniting other tribes under your banner, kepping you civ together should require some more effort then in normal Civ-games then.
It'll take time before a new city will completely feel part of your empire. In the mean time other civs could persuade them to leave your empire.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lemmy
Another thought:
You build your empire by uniting other tribes under your banner, kepping you civ together should require some more effort then in normal Civ-games then.
It'll take time before a new city will completely feel part of your empire. In the mean time other civs could persuade them to leave your empire.

Yep, that was what I was thinking too
Managing a proper order in your empire should be much more critical in a postapocalytic game than in a regular Civ game. Besides, the sheer number of tribes at the beginning makes it possible for individual villages to become independent again.

[Stefu]

I've ben thinking about this. What you folks say about keeping your empire together is important. Since this game needs a setting, I continue to argue that there's only one proper place for a post-apocalyptic world, and it is United States of America. Or possibly Australia, but United States of America is always preferable. The reason is simple - US is big, but has a roughly similar culture all around it, so it makes a good setting for a game like this. Also, US... apocalypse... US. I trust I don't need to say more.

So, this would give us a goal - reunite the states. The constitution, the flag, rah rah USA USA, all that. It's like made for a game like this. Of course, you can also try to build your own raider empire, if that's more your bag No-one said the US has to be exactly like the US of today...

(Which isn't.)

(A raider empire, that is.)

(No raider empires in North America, no.)

(Nosirree. No raider empires. And certainly not U. S of. A. Where was I?)

Oh yes. This game would certainly be about small communities. I'm thinking a system bit like Colonization - we're dealing with people who can take different positions in society (farmers, engineers, scavengers etc.) and may specialize them. One 'person' (ie. a population point, in civ terms) would be about 50ish folks, counting the men, women, children and the old people.) You'll start with a community of, say, 4-5 pop points, and in the beginning, the main method of getting more population is exploring for straggler groups (bit like in Col, the main method of population was getting them from Europe instead of awaiting for Civvish citizen-by-grain arriving.) There'd also be natural growth, though there's a chance of mutations, depending on how radiated the area your community is, is.

Yes, radiation. What I'm thinking for the terrain of this game is something like SMAC - each square will have humidity, mineral level, radiation and things like that affecting how productive it is. Radiation makes the land more unhospitable, of course - it could be something like fungus in SMAC, hindering your movement (radiation would damage your units) and generally being a nuisance.

Exploration would play a big part, as it is your mean of finding weapons caches, medicines, guides and such to help your people specialize, iodine and rad-suits to help moving in radiated areas, getting more people to join your community (refugees, perhaps some survivors from military units, etc.) Of course, right from the beginning there are decisions to be made - do I make these people farmers or scouts, or possibly engineers to help me deal with these weapon finds? When do I make some of my people full-time soldiers, so I don't have to rely on militia to take on those damn raiders? How about farming something other than food, when I've got my food production in order of course, like tobacco, and selling it (tobacco could be used to keep people happy, for example).

I'm also envisioning taking a little something from Kings of Dragon Pass, that great little underdog - decisions. There'd be, once in a while, possibilities to make a decision by choosing from several options - for instance, your priest wants to build a big cathedral - building it would mean your people laboring many seasons, but it'd also comfort your people and possibly make people from other communities to respect you, on the other hand the priest would get more power and might cause trouble later, so you'd have to decide from, for instance, options "Don't build the cathedral", "Don't build the cathedral and banish the priest", "Allow people to participate in building the cathedral", "Order people to participate in building the cathedral", and "Try to find out if other communities are willing to participate". Each choice would have different effects.

I WANT THIS GAME! I need this game! If there's a Sid fairy, I command the Sid fairy to make Sid listen!

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Stefu
Oh yes. This game would certainly be about small communities. I'm thinking a system bit like Colonization - we're dealing with people who can take different positions in society (farmers, engineers, scavengers etc.) and may specialize them. One 'person' (ie. a population point, in civ terms) would be about 50ish folks, counting the men, women, children and the old people.) You'll start with a community of, say, 4-5 pop points, and in the beginning, the main method of getting more population is exploring for straggler groups (bit like in Col, the main method of population was getting them from Europe instead of awaiting for Civvish citizen-by-grain arriving.) There'd also be natural growth, though there's a chance of mutations, depending on how radiated the area your community is, is.

I was thinking along the lines of a Colonization system too.
However, I think the pop point's function, unlike Colonization, should heavily depend on the hardware you can give to your population. In Colonization, you only have to put some settler on a forest for him to become immediately a woodsman. The only way to improve his production is by making him an expert woodsman, i.e through formation rather than through more efficient hardware.

In CivApocalypse, I think the pop's function should depend on the hardware you give to your pop. This idea is exactly the same as in Colonization, when you are giving rifles and horses to your troops ; it is only generalized at every level of the production.
For example, let's say your village of Shady Sands has just managed to build a batch of iron axes. If you give these axes to your woodcutters, they'll become immediately more efficient than before. Same thing with plows, weapons, etc.
Of course, this hardware could be found in goody huts too. The exploring pop point will then transport it, and will have to bring it back to other people in order for them to use it.

Naturally, a pop point should be able to perform anything without equipment. Let's just say they use basic tools that are made on the fly.

I also think there should be a colonization-like formation, i.e your people become more specialized and more productive as they get experience in their specialization. I think this experience can come with time or with education. I'd reserve education for later in the game, when an education system is restored.

For the 'hardware' system to be convenient, it needs a good automation (for example, a new batch of axes goes automatically to the most productive woodcutters around - you can deprive them of their axes later if you want to)

Yes, radiation. What I'm thinking for the terrain of this game is something like SMAC - each square will have humidity, mineral level, radiation and things like that affecting how productive it is. Radiation makes the land more unhospitable, of course - it could be something like fungus in SMAC, hindering your movement (radiation would damage your units) and generally being a nuisance.

Exploration would play a big part, as it is your mean of finding weapons caches, medicines, guides and such to help your people specialize, iodine and rad-suits to help moving in radiated areas, getting more people to join your community (refugees, perhaps some survivors from military units, etc.)

Exactly ! Unlike Civ, exploration is especially critical because goody huts can provide goods better than what you'd ever be able to produce in early game. It is also a risky business since you can have a good chunk of your population (the scout) killed or enslaved.

Of course, right from the beginning there are decisions to be made - do I make these people farmers or scouts, or possibly engineers to help me deal with these weapon finds? When do I make some of my people full-time soldiers, so I don't have to rely on militia to take on those damn raiders? How about farming something other than food, when I've got my food production in order of course, like tobacco, and selling it (tobacco could be used to keep people happy, for example).

Yes, luxuries would be a great idea. For the beginning of this thread, I think the pop's morale should have a significant impact on pop growth, but I cannot think of any rational model.

I'm also envisioning taking a little something from Kings of Dragon Pass, that great little underdog - decisions. There'd be, once in a while, possibilities to make a decision by choosing from several options - for instance, your priest wants to build a big cathedral - building it would mean your people laboring many seasons, but it'd also comfort your people and possibly make people from other communities to respect you, on the other hand the priest would get more power and might cause trouble later, so you'd have to decide from, for instance, options "Don't build the cathedral", "Don't build the cathedral and banish the priest", "Allow people to participate in building the cathedral", "Order people to participate in building the cathedral", and "Try to find out if other communities are willing to participate". Each choice would have different effects.

I'm not sure, because it would be 'events' whose timing is dictated by the game rather than the player. If you remember Imprialism, the technological advances were such events, and the player had no grip on them except deciding if he bought these techs or not. I thought it was the worst part of Imperialism. However, more options when building, such as the ones you listed, would be more than welcome

Since this game needs a setting, I continue to argue that there's only one proper place for a post-apocalyptic world, and it is United States of America. Or possibly Australia, but United States of America is always preferable. The reason is simple - US is big, but has a roughly similar culture all around it, so it makes a good setting for a game like this. Also, US... apocalypse... US. I trust I don't need to say more.

So, this would give us a goal - reunite the states. The constitution, the flag, rah rah USA USA, all that. It's like made for a game like this. Of course, you can also try to build your own raider empire, if that's more your bag No-one said the US has to be exactly like the US of today...

Let me disagree. I think it would be a bad idea to forcefully implement the game in the US. I agree the size should be continent-wide rather than worldwide, but I'd advocate a random map generator along with premade maps. To me, CivApocalypse starts late enough (when survivors have first organized) for making today's flag-waving dead.

It seems Fallout is your big inspiration (mine too ), and I don't remember having seen any nostalgy for the USA in Fallout, except by II's baddies.

[Immortal Wombat]

Beginning to leave the realms of "achievable" and into the realms of "where's a game development company when you need it" again.

[Spiffor]

Yep. I wasn't thinking of an existing modded game from the beginning, even though a modded game could give a feeling on how I picture CivApocalypse

[Jamski]

Well, I've started schetching out a tech tree already...Does anyone have an idea for different "Ages" ?

Survival Age
Exploration(???) Age
Reconstruction Age
Re-Unification Age
????? Age

-Jam

[Stefu]

Actually, while thinking about this, I came up with neat division in three ages:

Survival
Recovery
Revival
Restoration

[Lemmy]

And Destruction to it and you can make the game cyclical.

btw, that are 4 ages you got, not 3

[Jamski]

What's the difference between Recovery, Revival & Restoration?

They're all pretty much rebuilding the past, or am I being dumb?

-Jam

[DrSpike]

Presumably 'recovery' is getting back on your feet and sorting out the basic necessities, 'revival' is as technology begins to improve towards its former level, and 'restoration' is the phase where you regain your former level.

[Jamski]

Survival
Exploration
Recovery
Rebuilding
Restoration
The New Earth

That's my 6 Ages, unless someone can come up with an improvement sharpish.

-Jam