Can a case be made for a Ukrainian civ for a Europe map?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Cian McGuire
Yes, they ailing state of Kievan Rus was ultimately conquered by the Horde...
...he was the Antichrist, and the destroyer of what they considered to be the great Russian traditions.

Well, thanks for the lecture. It's really imressive that you know so much about our history, but things you've described known to every Russian who finished basic school course of history of Russia.

I can understand British English perfectly well, however that does not make us the same culture or civilization.

Of course, because your ancesstors moved to absolutely new continent thousand miles away from their native land. You can't say the same about Ukraine. We lived in one state since 1654 up to 1991.

Incorrectly.

The 'Great Russians' of Moscow never had a direct link to Kiev Rus until 1686 when they wrested control of "East Bank Ukraine" from Poland-Lithuania.

Similarly, Kiev Rus was not the first Slavic state, although it did grow to be the East Slav state with the greatest impact up until Muscovy's rise to international power in the seventeenth century.

And the succession of states can be roughly viewed as Scythia-> Sarmatia-> the Germanic, migratory and ephemeral states of the Goths and Alemmani -> the Hunnish state -> Khazaria -> Kievan Rus-> the assorted states of Ukraine as ruled by the Cossack Hetman-> Russian hegemony-> modern, independant state of Ukraine

When I said "we consider Kiev Rus as our root, as first Slavic state" I've meant that Kiev Rus is basement for our current state. It was the state which formed our modern culture, mentality, traditions, way of life call it how you want. The most important is that it formed our current religion- an Orthodox Christianity-decisive force in our culture. Well, perhaps "formed" it's not a proper word, but I don't know how to say it better.
That's why we consider Kiev Rus as first Slavic state, as our root. OUR
An attempt to portray Kiev Rus as root of Ukraine only, looks like really big mistake in my eyes.

[Heresson]

Today, Ukraine is one of more important European countries. But Ukrainian language is pretty weak,
in all the east and south, Russian one dominates,
and in most of its history, Ukraine was either under Polish, or Russian rule. Also, its culture was not enough original. And all that is original there, the steppe culture and stuff, You can find in Polish poethes of Ukraine as well.

[Heresson]

Kiev Ruthenia was not first Slavic state. And -though old compromitated Soviet history school denies that - it was not founded by Slavs

[Serb]

What?
Again?

Do you chase me Heresson?

[Beren]

Originally posted by Heresson
Kiev Ruthenia was not first Slavic state. And -though old compromitated Soviet history school denies that - it was not founded by Slavs

Indeed, that's true. A viking king did that job.

[joncnunn]

Actually, the Ukraine is currently very far down on the list of important countries in Europe.

Even the Baltic States just admitted to NATO are more important than the Ukraine which isn't. (My ranking for the Ukranine in Europe is 3rd from last. The least important country is Moldova and the second least important country is Belorus.)

Some Civs in this game were completely killed off centruaires ago though and on an all European map, it would be a good idea to include the Ukraine simply to fill the large chasm you would otherwise have between Germany and Russia. Use the charatsterics that existed prior to the Ukranie being conquered by the Mongols, when their state was at the peak of power.

Originally posted by Heresson
Today, Ukraine is one of more important European countries. But Ukrainian language is pretty weak,
in all the east and south, Russian one dominates,
and in most of its history, Ukraine was either under Polish, or Russian rule. Also, its culture was not enough original. And all that is original there, the steppe culture and stuff, You can find in Polish poethes of Ukraine as well.

[HAND]

I heard the Vikings founded Kiev, and that Russia was called so by them?

[Serb]

Kiev wasn’t founded by Vikings. Some Vikings (Rurick and two his brothers) were invited by population of Northern Russian cities to be their princes, to stop local bloody showdowns. Big difference.

[Serb]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Some Civs in this game were completely killed off centruaires ago though and on an all European map, it would be a good idea to include the Ukraine simply to fill the large chasm you would otherwise have between Germany and Russia. Use the charatsterics that existed prior to the Ukranie being conquered by the Mongols, when their state was at the peak of power.

Bah…how many times should I repeat this?
Kiev Rus wasn’t a state of Ukranians. Ukranians didn’t existed at this moment. IT WAS STATE OF SLAVS. S L A V S.
The sate that we- RUSSSIANS consider as our root, the basement of OUR civilization.

How could you torn Kiev Rus from Russian history is beyond me.

[Beren]

Originally posted by Serb
Kiev wasn’t founded by Vikings. Some Vikings (Rurick and two his brothers) were invited by population of Northern Russian cities to be their princes, to stop local bloody showdowns. Big difference.

I am not saying the Vikings founded Kiev. I am saying that it was a Viking who conquered a couple of other Russian states and thus founded the Kiev Rus state.

[Heresson]

In fact I believe that Russia was founded by the Devil himself.

[Serb]

He didn’t conquered, if you mean Rurick- the founder of first Russian royal dynasty. There is no single mention about Viking’s conquests of Slav’s land in historical documents. Documents say that three brothers were invited by Slavs of Northern Slav’s towns to rule them and that that ended bloody war between them (Northern Slavs), which they fought vs. each other to gain control over those cities.

The rest is Heresson’s fantasies .

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson
In fact I believe that Russia was founded by the Devil himself.

Cheap trolling.

The Poland is founded by Iuda Iskariot. I'm sure he used 30 silver coins he received for betrayal of Jesus to foud this state of traitors.

[Heresson]

No, our state was founded by two angels who chose a new king of the people on the place of old bad king Popiel. It's true legend!

[Serb]

Yeah, right... You just forgot to mention that they were fallen angels, serfs of Satan.