new wonder ideas thread

[Amadan]

Originally posted by Optimizer
Great, GhengisFarb!

I also think that the Hanging Gardens should be removed, since it did not actually exist.

They were built by King Nebuchadnezzer II for his wife approx. 600 BCE. There is archeological evidence to support their existance.

[Optimizer]

Now I know why I couldn't make the Eternal City. Buildings that allow size 3 are not available until the city has reached size 2.

Concerning the Hanging Gardens, there is no archaeological or historical evidence that they ever existed, so one should assume the opposite.

[gnome]

Space Race modifications

I have tinkered with adjusting the space race, so that you have to jump through a couple more hoops before building the spaceship... it bothered me that in the original game, spaceship construction could start almost right away in the Modern era, and was a part of the game all through that era... by the mid to late modern era, very little matters except finishing the space ship, rendering most of the modern era irrelevant. In the last couple of games I played, there wasn't even a significant nuclear crisis before everyone started rushing to build spaceships.

My solution--not to be able to actually start the spaceship until later in the modern era. I mean, think about it... since when do we go to the Moon and then immediately say "Whoopee! We're going to Alpha Centauri!"... how many spaceship parts do we have in RL?

I started by requiring Computers as well as Rocketry for Space Flight--it always seemed odd to me to go straight from Rocketry to spaceflight, and (someone can perhaps contradict me here) is it possible to mount an Apollo-scale space mission without computers to plan out the mathematics of it?

Next I changed the wonders around a bit... first, I made Apollo Mission back into a Great Wonder. This time, it is one of those "inspirational" wonders that gives you two free advances. I think that this is more representative of the endeavor's actual impact--again and again I read how it totally changed people's view of the world, and made them think anything was possible. I also boosted its culture with the same idea in mind. As an aside, to represent the change, for the splash screen I am hunting for a picture of a family crowded around the television to watch the landing--if anyone happens to spot anything like that, I would appreciate it.

So then I made another small wonder, with the original effect of making your nation able to build spaceship parts. After some thought, I called it Space Station, and required Robotics. Any huge starship with actual colonies attached to it, is probably going to be constructed in space. This means some kind of orbiting station, and robotic arms for assembly (to reduce the amount of EVA time needed by the astronauts working on it). This is not meant to represent the nation's first actual space station, but rather a large-scale construction facility. Mir-style research space stations are assumed to already exist.

Choosing Robotics also has the advantage of being at the end of one path in Modern era but not requiring all of the techs in the modern era. But this also proved a problem--it was now possible to build the Space Station and start adding components, without even researching Space Flight! Since Small Wonders can only have one advance as a prerequisite, I resolved this by adding a Small Wonder to Space Flight--the Space Center. This is a relatively cheap wonder that serves as a prerequisite building for Space Station, and additionally has a culture and research bonus for its city.

Any thoughts are appreciated... also of course any artwork from people who may have already created wonders of this type if they feel inclined to share (though I suspect I will probably have to bite the bullet and make or find my own).

Once I actually get it working and have some reasonable artwork, I will post the mod for all to enjoy.

[hahntsak]

early on slavery then later [industrial or modern - emancipation.


rename workers as slaves but give a few worker jobs to settler or other unit...
slaves could upgrade to citizens

i got a question: if a unit has both build city and build colony checked what happens?

[hahntsak]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

Great ideas!


Maybe this should be a small wonder.



My Suggestions:
The Eternal City - +4 Happy people, allows city size 3, available with masonry.
During Ancient Times there ought to be the possibility of creating a huge city like Rome with all the consequences there of. (can you image keeping a big city happy in Ancient Times!)

or Holy City like jerusalem, mecca, or even rome... or babylon or lhasa etc...

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Optimizer
Great, GhengisFarb!

I also think that the Hanging Gardens should be removed, since it did not actually exist.

What makes you say that? I thought that, despite the scant evidence, the Hanging Gardens were believed to actually exist.

[hahntsak]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace


What makes you say that? I thought that, despite the scant evidence, the Hanging Gardens were believed to actually exist.

they May have but after 3000+ years in the desert they've long since dried, shriveled up, crumbled, and blown away with the winds...

even the great library of alexandria couldn't survive an invading general who ordered it burned...

[Optimizer]

I repeat my statement about the Hanging Gardens: in contrary to the other wonders, there is no evidence that they existed. You could as well make an Atlantis wonder.

The Olympic games could become obsolete with Genetics, because advanced doping and genetic engineering probably would ruin most sports.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Optimizer
I repeat my statement about the Hanging Gardens: in contrary to the other wonders, there is no evidence that they existed.

Well I have to agree that you are absolutely right. There is no convincing evidence that the gardens ever existed (at least in the form of anything that can be classified a wonder).

How ironic that they made it into civ ahead of the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, the Temple of Artemis, and the Statue of Zeus which all certainly did exist.

You could as well make an Atlantis wonder.

Now there's a thought...

How about a "Maze of the Minotaur" wonder?

[hahntsak]

Originally posted by Optimizer
I repeat my statement about the Hanging Gardens: in contrary to the other wonders, there is no evidence that they existed. You could as well make an Atlantis wonder.

The Olympic games could become obsolete with Genetics, because advanced doping and genetic engineering probably would ruin most sports.

i suppose the moon landing was faked too?
do you know there was not an atlantis? i heard somewhere that it may have been in arabian or was it red sea not mediterranean or ocean sea [what they used to call atlantic ocean].

inceidently i dont think much of that wonder [hanging gardens]... i'd rename it...

[johncmcleod]

That's a pile of crap. One, if they faked it, why did they do it several times? It would just increase the chance of it being discovered. Two, why would they build all of those Saturn V rockets? Those are extremely expensive and they faked it the gov would say they'd only do one landing because of budget constraints. Three, how could the government completely cover that up? Four, before we landed on the moon, everyone thought the dust there was 6 or 7 feet deep (explaining the lunar module"s long legs). When we landed there we discovered that the dust was only inches deep. They knew that if they faked that if a moon landing in the future was made (probably for colonization reasons, and at that time they thought that would be possible during their lifetime) that they would be proved wrong. Five, what about apollo thirteen? Six, our it was proved that we had the technology to do it, and at that time the Russians were out of the space race, so there wouldn't be very much of a need to get there. And yes, I know about the moon, promise, but even if the first one was, they wouldn't have any reason at all to fake it again. They'd land on it for real and say they landed on it for their second time even though it was really their first. And if they faked it the first time and landed the second, then how could they have known when they faked it about the dust?

And about the hanging gardens. One of those Greek philosophers (I forgot his name cuz I get them all mixed up) saw it and wrote about. I saw a show on it. So there's your historical evidence.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
That's a pile of crap. One, if they faked it, why did they do it several times?

maybe the fake-comittee got a Buzz () out of it and then got addicted to it.

It would just increase the chance of it being discovered. Two, why would they build all of those Saturn V rockets?

They had already built them all but then realised that the rest of the mission was impossible given current technology so they just launched them all for the propoganda value.

Those are extremely expensive and they faked it the gov would say they'd only do one landing because of budget constraints.

Which part of the government? Let's assume that the president was never asked onto the Fake-Committee.

Three, how could the government completely cover that up?

by killing anyone who found out (except for the trusted people on the aforementioned fake-commitee)

Four, before we landed on the moon, everyone thought the dust there was 6 or 7 feet deep (explaining the lunar module"s long legs). When we landed there we discovered that the dust was only inches deep. They knew that if they faked that if a moon landing in the future was made (probably for colonization reasons, and at that time they thought that would be possible during their lifetime) that they would be proved wrong.

Maybe they figured that a surprise like that would add credence to the fake. That combined with short-termism or just guessing correctly that nobody else would bother going to the moon for ages anyway.

Five, what about apollo thirteen?

What about it? media interest in the fake-comittee's hard work was waning so they made life interesting. (and how convenient that it was unlucky 13 that "went wrong")

Six, our it was proved that we had the technology to do it, and at that time the Russians were out of the space race, so there wouldn't be very much of a need to get there. And yes, I know about the moon, promise, but even if the first one was, they wouldn't have any reason at all to fake it again. They'd land on it for real and say they landed on it for their second time even though it was really their first. And if they faked it the first time and landed the second, then how could they have known when they faked it about the dust?

hang on lost you there... do my previous answers conver this one? ... I'm sure they do.

actually I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm pretty confident that American's did go to the Moon and all the things that go with it. It's not certain though...

And about the hanging gardens. One of those Greek philosophers (I forgot his name cuz I get them all mixed up) saw it and wrote about. I saw a show on it. So there's your historical evidence.

looking at

http://ce.eng.usf.edu/pharos/wonders/gardens.html

I find this:
"While the most descriptive accounts of the Gardens come from Greek historians such as Berossus and Diodorus Siculus, Babylonian records stay silent on the matter. Tablets from the time of Nebuchadnezzar do not have a single reference to the Hanging Gardens, although descriptions of his palace, the city of Babylon, and the walls are found. Even the historians who give detailed descriptions of the Hanging Gardens never saw them. Modern historians argue that when Alexander's soldiers reached the fertile land of Mesopotamia and saw Babylon, they were impressed. When they later returned to their rugged homeland, they had stories to tell about the amazing gardens and palm trees at Mesopotamia.. About the palace of Nebuchadnezzar.. About the Tower of Babel and the ziggurats. And it was the imagination of poets and ancient historians that blended all these elements together to produce one of the World Wonders. "

so perhaps there never were any hanging gardens as such.

So I would say thumbs up to Apollo Program (and hurrah for the good ol' USA)

and thumbs down to the Hanging Gardens (damn those untrustworthy, mendacious Greeks)

[hahntsak]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
That's a pile of crap. One, if they faked it, why did they do it several times? It would just increase the chance of it being discovered. Two, why would they build all of those Saturn V rockets? Those are extremely expensive and they faked it the gov would say they'd only do one landing because of budget constraints. Three, how could the government completely cover that up? Four, before we landed on the moon, everyone thought the dust there was 6 or 7 feet deep (explaining the lunar module"s long legs). When we landed there we discovered that the dust was only inches deep. They knew that if they faked that if a moon landing in the future was made (probably for colonization reasons, and at that time they thought that would be possible during their lifetime) that they would be proved wrong. Five, what about apollo thirteen? Six, our it was proved that we had the technology to do it, and at that time the Russians were out of the space race, so there wouldn't be very much of a need to get there. And yes, I know about the moon, promise, but even if the first one was, they wouldn't have any reason at all to fake it again. They'd land on it for real and say they landed on it for their second time even though it was really their first. And if they faked it the first time and landed the second, then how could they have known when they faked it about the dust?

And about the hanging gardens. One of those Greek philosophers (I forgot his name cuz I get them all mixed up) saw it and wrote about. I saw a show on it. So there's your historical evidence.

1,2. govt could easily waste money on numerous high priced military projects.... and they keep doing so to keep military suppliers happy and they supply campaign contributions to elected officials. [toilette seat example]

i don't doubt the moon landings did happen but the govt could fake lots of them.

i also believe an enlightened atlantis once existed but it given how long ago it was when the greek saw it that wrote about it or start the oral tradition that eventually got written down, it may have not been that advance just more than the greeks at that time. i figure they had boats, adobe like dwellings before greeks, i read somewhere that rather than having sunk it was flooded over like say the red sea when it filled in suddenly.
maybe it was in part of the caspian lake [its not a true sea]

btw the mercury flights weren't faked one guy lost his capsule in the ocean...
real goobers ... military intelligence - a contradiction in terms.

[hahntsak]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace

They had already built them all but then realised that the rest of the mission was impossible given current technology so they just launched them all for the propoganda value.


Which part of the government? Let's assume that the president was never asked onto the Fake-Committee.


by killing anyone who found out (except for the trusted people on the aforementioned fake-commitee)



Maybe they figured that a surprise like that would add credence to the fake. That combined with short-termism or just guessing correctly that nobody else would bother going to the moon for ages anyway.


What about it? media interest in the fake-comittee's hard work was waning so they made life interesting. (and how convenient that it was unlucky 13 that "went wrong")


hang on lost you there... do my previous answers conver this one? ... I'm sure they do.

actually I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm pretty confident that American's did go to the Moon and all the things that go with it. It's not certain though...



looking at

http://ce.eng.usf.edu/pharos/wonders/gardens.html

I find this:
"While the most descriptive accounts of the Gardens come from Greek historians such as Berossus and Diodorus Siculus, Babylonian records stay silent on the matter. Tablets from the time of Nebuchadnezzar do not have a single reference to the Hanging Gardens, although descriptions of his palace, the city of Babylon, and the walls are found. Even the historians who give detailed descriptions of the Hanging Gardens never saw them. Modern historians argue that when Alexander's soldiers reached the fertile land of Mesopotamia and saw Babylon, they were impressed. When they later returned to their rugged homeland, they had stories to tell about the amazing gardens and palm trees at Mesopotamia.. About the palace of Nebuchadnezzar.. About the Tower of Babel and the ziggurats. And it was the imagination of poets and ancient historians that blended all these elements together to produce one of the World Wonders. "

so perhaps there never were any hanging gardens as such.

So I would say thumbs up to Apollo Program (and hurrah for the good ol' USA)

and thumbs down to the Hanging Gardens (damn those untrustworthy, mendacious Greeks)

maybe the greeks noticed the botanical overgrowth and found it appealing, but the babylonians found the overgrowth a nuisance better forgotten and not noteworthy.... sort of the way atlantis probably was.
greeks saw one thing, locals another...

now be kind and pass out the bic lighters to the nice primitive tribes people so we can drill for oil here...

[Optimizer]

Please keep to the topic!