On the Utility and Use of Armies

[Theseus]

So I've earned the steven8r Institute "Good Armykeeping Seal of Approval?"

Cool.

Seriously, thanks.

[DeepO]

After deiscussing the use of Mixed Unit Armies with you in How do Armies handle damage? thread, I believe this thread needs a bump of honor. Thanks Theseus for the superb suggestions!

DeepO

[Theseus]

Thank you, DeepO.

Not just the complement... I've been thinking about the Cav / MI combo all afternoon and evening. It may be overkill in SP (seriously, the AI can't handle a stack of 20 Tanks to begin with, much less covered by a 19 hp MI-led Army), but in MP this'll be standard in late game wars (I think).

[bretwalda]

GL from the SAME elite unit

It might be that my memory elludes me, but I think it is documented somewhere that you can't get more than 1 GL from any given elite unit? Maybe it is only so in the more recent patches?

Originally posted by DrFell
Playing today as Japan on deity, the same elite horseman managed to generate 3 GLs in about 5 combats. That's the best I've ever seen, I'd gone all out military and by about 500BC had 3 wonders (Forbidden Palace, Sun Tzus, and Great Library). So to all you who aren't getting GLs - you must really be doing something wrong! Early combat seems to generate almost a guaranteed early leader for the palace, and sometimes you get bonuses like these.

[Ironikinit]

Heh. Oops.

Very educational thread. I've always liked sword armies... sort of hate the idea of leaving an open slot, but then it's not so key with swordsmen. Wish I had more time to play so I could try out the ideas here.

[Theseus]

bretwalda,

I would imagine DrFell's post was from a while ago, before Firaxis confirmed that you can only get 1 per elite, and before there was any way to track elites*.

BTW, you know that after you upgrade an elite*, it resets to a vet, and then can be promoted and used to generate another GL.

[War Elephant]

Really nice thread. I tell ya. Leaders. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em. Destined to go down as one of the great pavlovian computer game rewards.

I'm not a statistician but just started recording Leader results brute force approx. 8-10 games ago. Then I read here that there's a suspicion that beating a higher defense strength is a factor and I suspected as much myself, having observed such anecdotally.

My results:
15 Leaders in 393 wins without HE. (.038)
5 Leaders in 55 wins with HE. (.090)

I had been having a noticable dry streak lately so the without-HE number is probably low. And I know 55 is not enough of a sample for the with-HE number so that may be a tick low too. I'm roughing it out as 10 percent chance to get one with Heroic Epic and 5 percent without. Thinking of it a doubling your chances with HE and it starts looking good, especially with that good culture for a small wonder. And of course, the more you fight, the more the HE is a benefit.

Just started a spreadsheet to keep more detailed stats -- which unit type, hit points, terrain, attacker or defender, etc. We'll see how it goes.

I alternate Monarch between Emperor games, playing EVERY CIV in order. I go back and forth on armies and how to use the early GLs. I'm a building type but without the patience to finesse the diplomacy necessary (Plus I hate giving or trading techs.) And I'm still somewhat spoilt by the ol' ALL MONGOL strategy of CIV I. (Civ 2 and Call to Power didn't do anything for me.) So I play a kind of tweener game and have won a few at Monarch and two at Emperor. (Tried one diety game. Maybe some other time.) I have used armies to good effect as nutcrackers and choke point guards.

The concepts in this thread deserve exploration, especially the mixed unit ideas. I'd never even CONSIDERED watering a later unit down with old ones, but now I see some possibilities. Especially after when the game first came out and the general initial reaction seemed to be that armies were worthless.

And yes, the question, can army victories generate Leaders? I have never seen it. I suspect not. Army passengers get promoted but I have seen no indication of which specific one is attacking. I suspect the leader routine (Watch it churn. Ahhhh.) is attached to a unit result, since a leader without a passenger behaves the same as a non-combat unit. Like a scout, if attacked it folds.

Right now I'm working on a kind of bastion strategy. (Use workers to fortify mountain-to-mountain and drive into enemy territory near a friendly town with a barracks.) Armies might come in handy.

A glorious way to burn time, yah.

[vmxa1]

Armies can not generate leaders as reported by Firaxis ad I have never seen it done either. I have started to make more armies in order to get the Pentagon and boost to 4 units. This allows one army to sit on a good size city and quell resisters and discourage counter attacking. This is very useful to me in late game as an Army of MechINf will hold a city against any moderate attack, if the AI will even attempt to attack it, often they stay away from armies. An army of modern armor can defeat even forted mechs in a metro, so if your arties can't be used they can. I am getting to like them more and more.

[ducki]

Nevermind. Should have read to the end before posting a question.

[twilight]

Real interesting. I always hated armies, but now I will think over my own tactics.

BTW: Some had written their tactics to use Elite very careful. Did you know this was one of the main tactics of the Romans? They had three catergories of Legionaries in each Legion. The recruits standing in the first lines, there they could train on living objects (ahem). If unsusccessful or tired the next line attacks, while the recruits went behind them, that would be the veterans in Civ. The last line were the Elite, only used for the last crush or the last chance in the battle (or producing great centurios ;-)

[ducki]

Here's a question about armies...
Cost.

Assume you have a 3 unit Army.
How much does it cost to upkeep (assume no "free" units)?
Is an army 1 unit, so 1 gpt?
Or is it, actually 4 units - army + 3 units inside, so 4gpt?
Or, finally, is the army itself free and you merely continue to pay the 3 gpt for the 3 units?

If all the units in an army just count as a single unit, I'm definitely going to start making an army with my first leader and using more armies to save money.
If it's an army+the units, then you are actually paying more to have the army than to have the units.

Curious.
Anyone know?

[Theseus]

I'm pretty sure you pay for everything individually.

[vmxa1]

twilight yes and those tactics worked quite well for Rome for a long time.
ducki, I do not know the answer as by the time I have some armies I no longer concern myself with cost. Look at the advisor when you get ready to make one see what if anything changes for the maint. Let me knoiw if you see it.

[ducki]

It might be a while before I generate a leader, but I'll try to remember that.

[Arrian]

I'm pretty sure you get charged for 4 units if you have an army with 3 units in it: 1gpt for the army shell itself, and 1 each for the units inside.

-Arrian