MOD: Patch suggestion MOD

[alexman]

Originally posted by player1
Of course only downside I can think of is that Ironclad to Destroyer upgarde would be a little cheap (40gp without Workshop).
But, I don't think it will be serious problem.

You know, of course what I (and lockstep, since it was his idea) will propose as a solution to this...

[lockstep]

3, 2, 1, 'Make it upgrade to the battleship instead!'

[player1]

No, no, no...
No low movment Ironclads.

Or otherwise I would not make Indust. as preq.
These are supposed to be fast (at least as sailing ships) and deadly ironclads.


And no upgardes to Battleships.
Seems silly ot have both Dest. & Ironl. in build queue befor Mass prod.



P.S.
Still, is 100 shield cost a good idea?

Is 40gp upgarde probelm, or not (maybe it's a GOOD thing?)

[player1]

I remeber I read one Militray naval history book and how have Destoryers made Ironclads obsolete.

Basicly, in 19th century, there was a race between better guns vs better armor.

And at, the end, better guns won.

So they took out heavy armor and made ships much faster.

That way, than they could evande better guns, instead to absorb damage by ticker armor.

And then you got a Destoryer.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by player1
No, no, no...
No low movment Ironclads.

I don't know if alexman's idea of faster frigates is 'realistic', but it makes for better gameplay IMO.

And no upgardes to Battleships.
Seems silly ot have both Dest. & Ironl. in build queue befor Mass prod.

Once you have researched Combustion (prereq for Destroyers), you're at most three techs away from Mass Production (prereq for Battleships). If you rushed to Replacable Parts before going for Combustion (which seems to be a common strategy), you're one tech away.

Still, is 100 shield cost a good idea?

I don't see a problem with it.

I remeber I read one Militray naval history book and how have Destoryers made Ironclads obsolete.

To be honest, I have no strong feelings about the ironclad upgrade issue. My 'battleship' suggestion came from the ironclad's Civilopedia entry. After all, what is a battleship in Civ3? A destroyer with about +50% attack strength, defense strength, bombard strength and shield costs.

[player1]

Cheap vs expensive could make good gamplay too.

Anyway not everybody rushes to Indusrtialization, so you'll have time to play with Frigates.

And it looks like Man-O-War could be cost-effecitive against Ironclads: 60vs100 & 3vs4 (but not too much).

[player1]

Originally posted by lockstep
I don't know if alexman's idea of faster frigates is 'realistic', but it makes for better gameplay IMO.

Somehow I liked to have more distinction between ships.


Firt, you get 4 movment insted of 3 (33% increase).

Then with combustion, you get also 33% increase (4 vs 6).

Adding Frigates with movment of 5 would make this break.

On the other hand, if you wanna make different movemnt rates, giving Ironclads movment of 3 would be resonable.

But, in that case, it would be taxing on AI.
And also, then, they should stay with cost of 80, and preq. of Steam Power.


I'll go with 100 shields cost.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by player1
Firt, you get 4 movment insted of 3 (33% increase).

Then with combustion, you get also 33% increase (4 vs 6).

The second one is a 50% increase.

Adding Frigates with movment of 5 would make this break.

3-4-6 vs. 3-5-6 .. I can live with both versions. And there's always the possibility to give destrovers and AEGIS cruisers a movement rate of 7, so that they are faster than battleships and carriers. (And if that combined with Magellan's Voyage brings destroyers to the maximal operational range of air units, then so be it.)

On the other hand, if you wanna make different movemnt rates, giving Ironclads movment of 3 would be resonable.

But, in that case, it would be taxing on AI.

This was also alexman's conclusion.

[player1]

Version 1.32 is OUT!
Download from top of the thread.


Changes in ver 1.32

Panzer Tanks get Wheeled ability.
I don't know why I missed that, since I gave that ability to other motorized units long ago.

Ironclads get cost of 100, in order to make them more distinctive from Frigates. Also Frigates become more popular because of realtively cheap cost.

Military Academy small wonder doesn't need anymore a "victorious army" as prequisite. This is done in order to make building of armies a better option.

It would not be unbalancing since I returned old cost of 400 shiled to buiuld an army. Since army cost is as high as of one Wonder builing, making army by using leaders should still be usefull.

In Civ3, Great Wall wonder is at very low value for human player.
In order to fix that, I added an additional befenit to that great wonder.
Every city, at same continent as Great Wall, will also get free City Walls improvment.


Also, I made a small change in difficulty settings for effective number of optimal cities (used when calculating corruption). I upped number of optimal cities at lower difficulty levels, while keeping old numbers at higher levels. That way, I made game a little easier on corruption (but not too much) at lower difficulty levels.

So at Chieftain, optimal number is 150% of base number instead of 100%, at Warlord 120% instead of 95%, at Regent 100% instead of 90% and at Monarch level 90% instead of 85%. At Emperor and Deity levels optimal number is left unchanged (80% and 70% as before).

[lockstep]

Player1, thanks for including the Military Academy change, which is my 'beloved' feature, in your mod!

As for further changes: I'd like to see that the best ideas for 'smoothing out the basic game' eventually converge into a single mod, a kind of 'Apolyton Standard'. At the moment, your 'Patch Suggestion' mod and alexman's 'Apolyton University' mod have acchieved a lot in that respect. I know that most of the differences between the two mods won't be resolved easily; this is especially true for the the Musketeer stats, the inclusion of zero range bombardment, the F-15/Stealth Fighter RoF, the movement rates of Frigates and Privateers and the ironclad upgrade path. The swordsman/longbowman upgrade path issue isn't that important IMO, because everything will change with PtW in that respect, and alexman's revised AI build priorities may undergo some changes due to playtesting. However, I'd like you to consider to implement the following changes of alexman's mod (which I suggested to him) also in your mod:

• Longevity doesn't yield additional happy faces and is available with Medicine instead of Genetics (costs are 800 shields instead of 1000). This makes the primary benefit of Longevity (faster city growth) actually useful and this wonder an interesting choice.
• SS Docking Bay requires Space Flight as in vanilla v1.29 instead of Robotics. That way, researching Robotics (which is one tech away from Minituarization, a prereq tech for space victory) becomes more of a strategic choice, because manufacturing plants could speed up the construction of SS parts.

Again thanks for updating your mod, which after all isn't that 'conservative' anymore.

EDIT: Your mod readme (for v1.00) still says 'Army gets price of 300'. You should add 'Removed in v1.32'.

EDIT2: A last major difference between AU mod and PS mod is the question of upgrading Privateers to Destroyers. I know that A/D rates of 2/1 are ridiculous in the late industrial and modern age; however, Privateers have hidden nationality. Are you sure that this isn't useful even in special cases (let's say, attacking heavily damaged transports of another Civ so that it won't be able to sustain an attack against a third Civ)?

[player1]

Originally posted by lockstep
Longevity doesn't yield additional happy faces and is available with Medicine instead of Genetics (costs are 800 shields instead of 1000). This makes the primary benefit of Longevity (faster city growth) actually useful and this wonder an interesting choice.

Don't know about this one.
It would make is just too much different then original.

[*]SS Docking Bay requires Space Flight as in vanilla v1.29 instead of Robotics. That way, researching Robotics (which is one tech away from Minituarization, a prereq tech for space victory) becomes more of a strategic choice, because manufacturing plants could speed up the construction of SS parts.[/list]Again thanks for updating your mod, which after all isn't that 'conservative' anymore.

From my gaming expirience, it would not be good strategic choice.
It would still be faster to leave Nuclear Power - Laser - Robotics at the end of research chain.

This way, you can at least play a little with Cruisers and Radar Artillery.

EDIT: Your mod readme (for v1.00) still says 'Army gets price of 300'. You should add 'Removed in v1.32'.

Read it again.
There is:

Army gets price of 300 (changed back to 400 in v1.32), to make players build these in Industrial age, not after they get 80+ shileds cities.
Army gets also a pillage order.

EDIT2: A last major difference between AU mod and PS mod is the question of upgrading Privateers to Destroyers. I know that A/D rates of 2/1 are ridiculous in the late industrial and modern age; however, Privateers have hidden nationality. Are you sure that this isn't useful even in special cases (let's say, attacking heavily damaged transports of another Civ so that it won't be able to sustain an attack against a third Civ)?

It could be usefull in 1-5% of cases.
But it won't be worth enough to have it "infest" your modern build queue.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by player1
Don't know about this one.
It would make is just too much different then original.

Hmm .. but 'changing as little as possible' does not always mean 'changing little'. (And this change really makes for better gameplay.)

From my gaming expirience, it would not be good strategic choice.
It would still be faster to leave Nuclear Power - Laser - Robotics at the end of research chain.

This way, you can at least play a little with Cruisers and Radar Artillery.

If I really wanted AEGIS cruisers, I'd research Robotics anyway. And if the Nuclear Power - Laser path is still the fastet road to space victory, I'd rather increase the costs of SS parts by 25% or 50% than changing yet another prerequisite. But I guess only playtesting will decide what's the better way.

Read it again.
There is:

It's correct in the zipped readme, but wrong at page 1 of this thread.

It could be usefull in 1-5% of cases.
But it won't be worth enough to have it "infest" your modern build queue.

Hmm ... have to think about that one.

[player1]

Originally posted by lockstep
If I really wanted AEGIS cruisers, I'd research Robotics anyway. And if the Nuclear Power - Laser path is still the fastet road to space victory, I'd rather increase the costs of SS parts by 25% or 50% than changing yet another prerequisite. But I guess only playtesting will decide what's the better way.

Tried before with increased cost.

Kills AI desire to build Space Ship.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by player1
Tried before with increased cost.

Kills AI desire to build Space Ship.

IIRC, it needed +150% to kill the AI's space victory desire. +25% or +50% might not be that bad. Also, Soren mentioned that the AI wil go more agressively for a space victory in v1.29, so we could at least give it a try.

[player1]

Lockstep,

I have an idea!

Play a custom version of my MOD with higher cost of Space parts (with no part more expensive them 1000 shields).

Parts prices should then be: 250, 500, 1000

Playtest it and note how agressively AI aims for Space Victory.

After that, share your expirience with me & alex in this and AU thread.