The Ancient Times mod - Help Wanted

[Rosacrux]

Eras

My take is that we should stick to the "official" end of the ancient world - and for most historians that would be the fall of Rome to the Goths.

Wernazuma I can see your point about the conquest-era final point, but that would set us out of the "classical antiquity". But again, we are open on discussion here. My vote goes with the fall of Rome. Others?

[Wernazuma III]

Well, I think the fall of Rome 410 is already an obvious consequence of the happenings in the "western part" of antiquity which was already corrupted for quite a time then. But when we make an antiquity mod, we should not fall into a "western european" centrism. We can't avoid to be somewhat eurocentric, but we shouldn't focus especially on the "more barbarian" area of antiquity. The east had a longer tradition, both regarding origins and they kept the tradition much longer. OK, I agree, we can't continue until the fall of Constantinople, that's way to exagerated. But a cut mark for the ancient east were the arab conquests which conquered many lands that, until then, stood in a lasting tradition of greek-roman culture. With losing Egypt and Syria the Eastern Roman Empire lost much of its core territory, the Sassanids were conquered about the same time, so the persian tradition was heavily cut.

My conclusion is that the Arab conquests in the end had an impact on "the end of Antiquity" equally or even higher than the so called Völkerwanderung, and as it was ocurring later, it should also be the end of the mod. Just my own 2 cents...

[Locutus]

Re: Eras

Originally posted by Rosacrux
Wernazuma I can see your point about the conquest-era final point, but that would set us out of the "classical antiquity". But again, we are open on discussion here. My vote goes with the fall of Rome. Others?

Personally I like 500 AD because it's a nice round number but if you must have a specific point in real history, I think (apart from the fall of Rome, which is nice too) 630 AD would be a nice year. The Muslim Arabs were really a Medieval civilization, they don't fit in the Ancient age. Their conquests directly or indirectly affacted almost all of Eurasia and Africa, so taking the starting point of their conquests (630 AD) as the starting point of Medieval times (and thus the endpoint of this mod) would be fitting. Also, it was in this year that Khavad II died, which plunged Sassanid Persia into anarchy. The dynasty managed to struggle on for another 10-20 years, devouring about a dozen different leaders and suffering from innumerable rebellions and indepence movements, but it was as good as lost in 630 already. Also, 630 AD is the year in which the Chinese started to invade Central Asia, something which also radically changed the geopolitical landscape of the eastern part of this modpack.

[hetairoi22]

I have edited my techtree post. It's easier on the eyes now!

BTW, I think that the Classical Age should come BEFORE the Iron Age. I (at least) se Classical as purely Greek...

Just my $0.02...

[Rosacrux]

I am back!

Hey all!

Sorry for my absence in the past few days but I have experienced an accident (my computer went *KABOOM* because of some darn power ups and downs and I am still on the run to get the parts to assemble a new one - only my video card, my floppy drive and my sound card survived the blast) and I couldn't do any work at home - I couldn't even play civ3

So, I am still connecting from work and so I won't be online for most of the time.

So, on the subject. I think hetairoi22 that the Iron Age started off pretty early (like 1000 BC) in some parts of the ancient world, so we'd be in trouble if we were to put the classical age before it.

Usually - hence the Graeco-Roman references - the Classical age is thought to span beyond the ancient Greek world well into the Roman era.

Instead of "Classical" what could we use?

Also, since most of you seem to prefare the Arabic conquest end instead of the fall of Rome, it's ok with me.

What we have ready:

- Eras
Prehistoric
Bronze
Iron
Classical (?)

- Start: 3000 BC
- End: 630 AD

I am taking a closer look into hetairoi22's tech tree, to evaluate it. I'd be happy if you could do the same and propose changes/additions etc.

Till later

[Optimizer]

Great ideas!

Let us think of what modern Civ 3 features that could be inserted into the ancient age.

Factory - Workshop
Hydro Plant - Water Mill
Mass Transit - Sewers
Recycling Plant - Dump

Leonardo - Archimedes
Magellan - The Odyssey

Intelligence Agency, Military Academy, Battlefield Medicine - same
Pentagon - House of Nobles
Air units - Long-range siege weapons? Birds? Balloons?
Nukes - Plague?
Space ship - Voyage to the New World?

Strategic resources:
Horses, Camels, Elephants, Timber, Copper, Tin, Iron, Shrine

We should have camel and elephant units!

[hetairoi22]

Sorry 'bout the computer Rosacrux... Hope it works out alright!

Good ideas Optimizer!

We could also replace the improvements COMPETELY! Like start from scratch?

Hmm. Here's some ideas (mostly Greek, sorry ):

Scientific / Educational Improvements:
Academy (Institutians after Plato and his Academy .)Increases science

School (Scientific improvement in the Classical Age?)

Other:
Gymnasium (Greek schools for physical training)

Commercial:
Market (?) (Like market place. Come in the first age)

Market Place (?) (Improved Market. Comes later)

Acropolis (or Civic Center. Comes even later)

Forum (Latest commercial imp.)

Some Wonders:

Hanging Gardens
Parthenon
Pyramids
Pont du Gard
Forum Romanum

We would one Wonder whcih corresponds to each civ included in the mod.

I was searching on Google today for Inventions. THis is what I came up with. Take a look:

Chinese Inventions

Childrens Timeline (The first half should be a little interesting)

Enchantedlearning.com - Inventions

Museum of Ancient Inventions

Some more Chinese inventions

[hetairoi22]

Originally posted by Optimizer
Great ideas!

Let us think of what modern Civ 3 features that could be inserted into the ancient age.

Factory - Workshop
Hydro Plant - Water Mill
Mass Transit - Sewers
Recycling Plant - Dump

Leonardo - Archimedes
Magellan - The Odyssey

Great ideas!

And one of my own:

Copernicus - Aristotle (or an other civ's scientist)

Originally posted by Optimizer
Intelligence Agency, Military Academy, Battlefield Medicine - same
Pentagon - House of Nobles
Air units - Long-range siege weapons? Birds? Balloons?
Nukes - Plague?
Space ship - Voyage to the New World?

Strategic resources:
Horses, Camels, Elephants, Timber, Copper, Tin, Iron, Shrine

We should have camel and elephant units!

Yes we should!

IMHO I think that we should remove the Air Units... With Siege Engines we could just increase their range! Birds?? Hmm. Balloons. Did any of the ancient Mediteraenian / Middle Eastern cultures use those? I don't know... They could perhaps be on a long branch of the techtree which wouldn't be used for advancing to the next age... so you could choose them if you had a lot of science... Comments anyone?

Space ship = Voyage? How would you do that. It would be alittle wierd being sent to the Space ship screen, would it not? It could be used if you would overlook that screen of course... Comments?

PS: I like your other ideas a lot!

[Rosacrux]

Great ideas!

...but this project seems getting bigger and bigger with every post

Actually, a total rework of

- Units
- Tech tree
- wonders
- resources

seems to be "ek ton on ouk anev" (does anyone knows Greek here? ) for an ancient Modpack.

As for resources goes, I have thought it over (eventhough I should re-think it taking the units-techs into account) but I was pretty keen on those:

- Marble
- Horses
- Wood (timber)
- Tin
- Copper
- Iron
- Elephants (but... only for a single unit? OK, maybe two if we go for the "elephants"-"war elephants" distinction).
...and?

Dunno. Shrine doesn't look good to me (in what way is that a resource?) but there are also many others we could incorporate. OK, let's work resources

[hetairoi22]

Camels: Allow

Light Cameleers, Camel Riders, Heavy Cameleers

They could be "wheeled" (as set in the Civ3Edit) so that they wouldn't move in mountains / jungle, but they could have better defense (maybe attack?) than cavalry.

And Elephants, War Elephants, Armored War Elephants

Slower than camels and horses?

Just some thoughts...

[hexagonian]

Hers's some info that you may find useful in setting up units/tech tree/civilizations. (Used in CTP2 Cradle Mod) - at least it might provide useful for filling in the areas that have not been developed in this Mod.

Good Luck

[Rosacrux]

Let's see...

OK, I have fooled around a bit with the unit list by Hetairoi and came up with some additions, changes to the original etc. Not including the prerequisites, technologies or resources yet, we should polish the statistics and the actual list first, and then go into the details.

Here they are so we can discuss those. There is a certain lack of late-game super units (like Armor, Mech. Infantry, mod. Armor etc. in the basic Civ3 game) and I don’t know if this is bad for the game balance… I need some feedback. Also, I have placed the units in their respective upgrade lines, NOT taking into account (yet) the special units of each civ.

So, here we go:

Units

- Tribal Warrior 1/1/1 --> Short Swordsmen 3/2/1 --> Armoured Sw/men 5/3/2
- Spearmen 1/2/1 --> Long Spearmen 2/4/1 --> Phalanx 3/6/1 --> ?
- Scout Cavalry 1/1/3 --> Light Cav. 2/1/3 --> Heavy Cav. 6/2/3 --> Cataphracts 8/4/3
- Chariot 2/1/2 --> Scythed Chariot 4/1/2 --> Heavy Chariot 6/1/3
- Elephants 3/1/2 --> War Elephants 5/2/2 --> armoured war eles. 7/4/2
- Bowmen 2/1/1 --> Archers 3/1/1 --> Composite Archers 4/1/2
- Horse archers 3/1/2 --> Skythian Archers 4/1/3 --> ?
Javelin throwers 2/1/2 --> Peltastes 4/1/2 --> ?


Bombard units
Well… can we add the Ram as a bombard unit? Dunno, we surely change the whole concept here (adding for instance Siege Tower and/or Hellepolis is also a leap in the concept of “bombard unit”). Dunno… any thoughts? What about the statistics? A little more balanced than the original by Hetairoi22?

Ram
Scorpion/Ballista --> Armoured Scorpion/Ballista
Catapult --> Mangonel --> Onager
Siege Tower (tr. 1 inf.) --> Hellepolis (tr. 1 inf.)

Straw Boat 0/0/2
Sail (tr. 1 unit) 0/1/3
Pentekonter (tr. 2 unit) 1/1/4
Bireme (tr. 1 units) 2/2/5
Trireme (tr. 1 units) 4/2/6
Quinquireme (tr. 3 units) 6/3/8
Heavy war galley (tr. 1 unit) 7/3/10(2/1/1)
Dromon (tr. 3 units) 9/4/12, (4/1/1)
Fireship 6/2/8, (7/1/1)
Caravel (tr. 6 units) 4/2/12


Resources

OK, I guess we can stick to the luxuries the game already has (no need for them to change) and replace the in-game strategic resources with those :

Wood
Marble
Copper
Cloth
Horses
Iron
Elephants
Tin

Didn’t include Camels because I don’t think Camels would be neither accurate (most civs of the modpack never used them anyway) or distinctive from their horse/elephant counterparts, but I am open on discussion on this (as on everything).

Can we add more than 8 resources? How many is the limit? DAMMIT, I DON’T HAVE ACCES TO THE GAME RIGHT NOW, SO I CAN’T CHECK ANY IN-GAME FACT. If yes, what resources would you add?

Hexagonian

Thanks, I have taken a look in it and I've found some very interesting additions for us to work with. Too bad it spans beyond the era we are focusing... but it can help in our mod too

[Bane Star]

Ancient but not medieval?

I created a civ2 anceint to medi-eval scenario, modifying the entire game, I have alot of my notes at hand and am interested in joining the entaurage of folks doing this

The biggest problem I cam across was the lack of techs allowable but I was attampting to go from the very begginnings right up until the invention of gunpowder making the Knight obsolete. (in western society that is)

Some of my notes on techs might help out...

p.s. the game started with 4 cavemen(settlers) even though your first town cannot produce anything but Neanderthals until the first discovery, Neanderathals were basic combat troops.

Flint Axe: cavemen(settlers)
Fire: flint axe
Stone Working: flint axe
Elders: fire local tavern(library)
Spear: Fire & flint axe spearmen (troop) Cheiftains Hut (barracks)
Tool Age: spear & stone working cavemen
The Wheel: stone working
Metal working: tool age & elders
Bareback Riding: tool age horses

allthough I would add in a tech to allow the horse to be discovered before having a tech to actually ride the horses

Pottery: tool age & Basket Weavinggranary
Wood working: metal working
Farming: wood working & elders farmland
Archery: wood working archer
Bronze working: pottery & metal working Bronze AGE
Mysticism: Farming shrine(temple)
The Stockade: Archery & Farming
Basket Weaving: The Stockade & Pottery
Collar & Hub: Bronze Working & The Wheel Trade Carts
Ceremonial Burial: Mysticism & Bronze working temple (church)
Flaxen: Basket Weaving
Horse Drawn: Bareback riding & Collar & Hub chariot
Leather: Farming & Bronze working
Monarchy: Ceremonial Burial & The stockade monarchy(gov)
Heirachy: Ceremonial Burial & Elders
Trade: Collar & Hub & Basket Weaving
Currency: Trade & Monarchy market place
Geriarchy: Heirarchy & Monarchygeriarchy(gov)
Rope: Flaxen & Heirachy explorer
The Warrior: Leather & The Spear The Warrior
Phalanx: The Warrior & Bronze working phalanx

Theres Page one of my notes, when I get online next I'll type in the next page, and maybe when the editor and game is more complete, I'll redo my scenario and post it here, Hope this helps for now

[hetairoi22]

wow Rosacrux! nice list!

I agree with your changes. Actually I made the units list a few months back so I didn't bother to balance them etc. I just had some spare time and made up some ideas.

On resources

What about a chemicals resource required for Fireship? Like sulphur or something?

I must admit a kinda agree with your choice of removing the camels ... though I kinda liked the idea from the start ... I thought that they could be used for variety, You know, give 'em different abilities etc... OTOH it would maybe be to much...

Could you tell me some of the ideas from Hexagonian's zip? I couldn't open the acrobat thingie...

Actually the "cloth" resource isn't really realistic, is it (I know, I know, I made it, but ). I later found out that sails were made of Hemp, which could replace the Cloth.

Some luxury ideas (if you deside to replace some of the old ones):
Linen (early cloth. Replace silk?)
Gold could be a luxury instead of a bonus tile...
Pottery ? could come visible with the "Pottery" tech...

A strat. resource could be stone, used to build large buildings? Walls, Palace, Fortresses ?

Just some random ideas...


On siege craft

I gave the Siege Towers a bombard value because they were sometimes armed with spearthrowers and catapult to throw over the wall. I though of them mainly for a protective unit for light infantry units. Place them on the same square and the tower would take the damage...

H22

[hetairoi22]

Re: Ancient but not medieval?

Originally posted by Bane Star
I created a civ2 anceint to medi-eval scenario, modifying the entire game, I have alot of my notes at hand and am interested in joining the entaurage of folks doing this

The biggest problem I cam across was the lack of techs allowable but I was attampting to go from the very begginnings right up until the invention of gunpowder making the Knight obsolete. (in western society that is)

Some of my notes on techs might help out...

p.s. the game started with 4 cavemen(settlers) even though your first town cannot produce anything but Neanderthals until the first discovery, Neanderathals were basic combat troops.

Flint Axe: cavemen(settlers)
Fire: flint axe
Stone Working: flint axe
Elders: fire local tavern(library)
Spear: Fire & flint axe spearmen (troop) Cheiftains Hut (barracks)
Tool Age: spear & stone working cavemen
The Wheel: stone working
Metal working: tool age & elders
Bareback Riding: tool age horses

allthough I would add in a tech to allow the horse to be discovered before having a tech to actually ride the horses

Pottery: tool age & Basket Weavinggranary
Wood working: metal working
Farming: wood working & elders farmland
Archery: wood working archer
Bronze working: pottery & metal working Bronze AGE
Mysticism: Farming shrine(temple)
The Stockade: Archery & Farming
Basket Weaving: The Stockade & Pottery
Collar & Hub: Bronze Working & The Wheel Trade Carts
Ceremonial Burial: Mysticism & Bronze working temple (church)
Flaxen: Basket Weaving
Horse Drawn: Bareback riding & Collar & Hub chariot
Leather: Farming & Bronze working
Monarchy: Ceremonial Burial & The stockade monarchy(gov)
Heirachy: Ceremonial Burial & Elders
Trade: Collar & Hub & Basket Weaving
Currency: Trade & Monarchy market place
Geriarchy: Heirarchy & Monarchygeriarchy(gov)
Rope: Flaxen & Heirachy explorer
The Warrior: Leather & The Spear The Warrior
Phalanx: The Warrior & Bronze working phalanx

Theres Page one of my notes, when I get online next I'll type in the next page, and maybe when the editor and game is more complete, I'll redo my scenario and post it here, Hope this helps for now

That's a good list Bane! I *think* it starts a little early for this mod. Not 100% sure what Rosacrux wants... Good ideas though! Looking forward to your next page!

I have some questions:
What's the Stockade?
What does The Warrior represent?
What is Geriachy?
What is Flaxen (I'm sure I should know this, but I live in Denmark and my English is degradeing day be day... )

Good work!