The Ancient Times mod - Help Wanted

[Rosacrux]

*Attention* the same thread shall be started in the "Civilizations" forum - Mods please be so kind and let the double be until we get things rolling (or not) and then you can close it down. Thank you.

I was thinking of an interesting modification for Civ3. A all-ancient mediteranean (and surrounding, like middle east-fertile crescent) mod. It would be rather interesting and also very fond to those who like the ancient civilizations.

But... it's a biggie. Actually not one I could carry on, since my time (devoted to anything but my work and my wife) is quite limited. So, I am looking for people who like this idea and care to join an effort to actually make a workable Ancient Times mod.

There are numerous issues - which civilizations to include, work on cities, leaders, heros and then the big one about the artwork... huh, so many things to do...

But we could work with some of the included civs (Greeks, Roman, Babylonian, Egypt, India and Persian are there, with some flaws but nothing that can't be corrected - as Indias leader of course should change) and add more by ourselves.

Like... ok, let's see. A good line-up for the ancient med/middle east would be:

- Rome
- Greece
- Egypt
- Babylon
- Persia
- India
- Karthago (and/or Phoenicia)
- Celts
- Hebrew
- Skythes
- Gauls (yes, they are Celts too...)
- Nubians
- Assyrian
- Hittites
- Ethiopians
- Etruscii

More suggestions: Illyrians, Thracians, Ionian Greeks, Italian Greeks, Medes, Parthians, Macedonian Greeks, Molloses - there are hundreds of civs we could use.

Alright, I am trying to lure some people into this project. If you like it, post here and we can discuss it.

Thanks

Rosacrux

[hetairoi22]

Cool idea!

Will you add new techs / ages as well?

Some ideas for ages:
Prehistoric / Copper Age / Stone Age
Bronze Age
Iron Age
Roman Times

...or you could use only Greek ages:
Dark Age
Archaic Age
Classical Age
Hellenistic Period

Any thoughts...?

PS: I'll think of some techs later...

EDIT: Oh, btw, here's a list of ancient units I made some time ago:

Unit -- stats (two numbers with a "-" between them means that it could be either) -- Prerequiste -- Prereq. resources -- (if it is drafted)
Light Infantry, 1/1/2-1, Nil, none
Bowmen 2/1/1-2, Warrior Code
Archers 3/1/1-2, Archery
Peasant Militia 1/2/1-2, Farming, +none (drafted)
Militia Spearman 2/3/2-3, Copper, +copper (drafted)
Long Spearmen 2/4/2-3, Iron Weapons, +iron (drafted)
Sickle Swordsmen 3/1/2-3, Warrior Code, +copper
Short Swordsmen 4/2/1-4, Military Tactics, +copper, +tin
Legionnaires 6/3/1-5, Iron Weapons, +iron
Chariots 3/1/4-3, The Wheel, +horses
Scythed Chariots 4/1/4-4, The Wheel, +horses, +copper
Scout Cavalry 0/1/6-2, Horseback Riding, +horses
Light Cavalry 2/2/5-4, Horseback Riding, +horses
Heavy Cavalry 6/3/3-5, Horse Barding, +horses, +copper, +tin
Cataphracts 8/3/3-6, Horse Tactics, +horses, +iron
Horse Archers 6/2/5-4, Horse Archery, +horses

Ram 0/0/2, 2/1/1, Warrior Code
Scorpion/Ballista 5/0/1, Mathematics
Catapult 0/0/1, 4/2/2, Mathematics
Armored Scorpion/Ballista 5/2/1, Siege Warfare, +iron
Mangonel 0/0/1, 6/2/2, Siege Warfare
Siege Tower (tr. 1 inf.) 0/3/1, 3/1/2, Siege Warfare
Onager 0/0/1, 8/2/3, Ballistics

Straw Boat 0/0/3, Nil, none
Sail (tr. 1 unit) 0/1/4, The Sail, +cloth, +wood
Pentekonter (tr. 1 unit) 1/1/5, Map Making, +cloth, +wood
Bireme (tr. 2 units) 2/2/7, The Naval Ram, +cloth, +wood, +copper
Trireme (tr. 3 units) 3/2/9, Naval Architecture, +cloth, +wood, +copper
Quinquireme (tr. 4 units) 4/3/12, Seafaring, +cloth, +wood, +copper, +tin
Dromon (tr. 3 units) 4/3/14, 3/1/1, Naval Tactics, +cloth, +wood, +iron
Fireship 3/2/8, 6/1/1, Greek Fire, +cloth, +wood, +iron
Caravel (tr. 6 units) 4/2/16, Star Navigation, +cloth, +wood

[Rosacrux]

Way to go!

Good one, hetairoi22 (I can see by your nick that you are indeed interested into the ancient era).

Yes, the unit list looks good and if more people can get into this discussion, it could work out quite well. I won't comment on specifics now, because it's too early, but we have something in hand here.

Also, about the ages, I guess we should use something more wider than the Greek eras [allthough I would be absolutely thrilled to make a "Ancient Greeks" mod... but since all but few greek states were cities (save Macedonia and the Hellenistic Kingdoms) I think we 'll have some hard time finding city lists, not to mention UUs for all...]

The first list sounds good, but we'd have to change the Roman Ages into something else, since the Romans shall be in the game. Any other ideas? Keep them coming

[hetairoi22]

Re: Way to go!

Originally posted by Rosacrux
Good one, hetairoi22 (I can see by your nick that you are indeed interested into the ancient era).

Yeah, I am! And I presume that you are too...?

Originally posted by Rosacrux
Yes, the unit list looks good and if more people can get into this discussion, it could work out quite well. I won't comment on specifics now, because it's too early, but we have something in hand here.

I'm glad you like 'em! Hmm, I like making ideas more than making mods, lol, so I hope we can make this idea into somethin'!

Originally posted by Rosacrux
Also, about the ages, I guess we should use something more wider than the Greek eras [allthough I would be absolutely thrilled to make a "Ancient Greeks" mod... but since all but few greek states were cities (save Macedonia and the Hellenistic Kingdoms) I think we 'll have some hard time finding city lists, not to mention UUs for all...]

Yeah, cool but tough... I think it would be better to make a scenario...but since we can't...

Originally posted by Rosacrux
The first list sounds good, but we'd have to change the Roman Ages into something else, since the Romans shall be in the game. Any other ideas? Keep them coming

Hmm, what 'bout this settup?

Prehistoric Age
Bronze Age
Early Iron Age
Late Iron Age

How exactly had you pictured the time-frame? 2000 BC - 300 AD ?

[hetairoi22]

Some more thoughts:

I think that the Macedonian Greeks should definetly be in, perhaps instead of the Etruscans (which doesn't have a very unique unit). The Macedonians could have the Hetairoi (first heavy cavalry) or Phalangites.

The Greeks could then be the Mycanaeans or the Minoans, so that they wouldn't start so near the Macedonians. If we made a huge map Crete could be fairly large so that the Minoans would have a chance of flurishing (that is if we can set starting possitions...)

My $0.02...

[Wernazuma III]

hetairoi: The civs to include are also being discussed in the Civ3-Civilizations Forum.
Yes, an Etruscan UU will be difficult to find, but to make a hellenocentric game can't be the answer. Etruscan culture, though in its later period almost a greek cultural province, should have a place in an ancient mod. Not only for their influence on the romans but also for being a unique urban society with a (very)unique language with much influence at its peak.

What a shame that we can't make a greek scenario though, that'd be nice. Even in Civ2 I wasn't satisfied for no one seemed to care to include Sicily and lower Italy in ANY Greece map...

[hetairoi22]

Yes, I see your concern... but, if the mod is to take place on a specific map, how do we stop nearby civs to conquer each other early on ? Like the Etrucans and the Romans, Macedonians and Greeks, Egyptians and Nubians...

If it isn't going to be on a pre-made map this isn't a problem of course.

Yeah, I know it isn't a good idea to remove the Etruscans, but I so want the Macedonians to be there as well. They _were_ very important, no?

[Rosacrux]

About civs

Hetairoi22

I would also like the Macedonian Greeks to be included - eventhough being a Greek myself I insist into the Greek-ness of the Macedonian civilization - because it would greatly serve gameplay and diversity - imagine hoplites and mac. phalanx or hetairoi cavalry?

But ...there is something that bugs me. About the map. I think we could start this off without any particular map in mind (because in any fair map of the region that is dictated by the civs we are using, we'd have to pair some of those very close: Greeks/Macedonian/Minoan and Roman/Etruscan as well as Babylonian/Assyrian and others).

so maybe we could just eliminate that annoyance by starting off without any specific game map in mind. Later, when Infogreed releases the add-on with the scenario builder, we can use those civs we make here to create some pretty interesting scenarios.

BTW I think it would be more appropriate (?) to discuss the civs we include plus their leaders, attributes, UUs over at the "Civilizations" forum and save this conversation for the eras (the new list of hetairoi22 looks good. any objections, anyone?) techs, wonders and general units.

[Locutus]

Re: Re: Way to go!

Originally posted by hetairoi22
Prehistoric Age
Bronze Age
Early Iron Age
Late Iron Age

In the CtP2 MedMod we used the term Classical Age to indicate 'Roman' times, so maybe have only one Iron Age and rename the last age to Classical Age? Other than that, it sounds good to me...

Starting without maps sounds excellent to me, exactly what I would (and more or less already did) assume...

[Rosacrux]

I think we can keep the combined Locutus-hetairoi22 idea on the eras, so if someone does not have any strong objections, we go with this:

- Prehistoric age
- Bronze age
- Iron age
- Classical age

With those in mind, the timeframe should be set... hhmm.. let's see, a start at 2000 BC or something like that and an end at ...the fall of Rome? Or the establishment of Constantinople? Ideas about that?

OK, I am taking suggestions for the tech-tree too. Hetairoi22 if you can post your tech tree (the one you based your units on) we could start discussing it and see where it leads us.

[hetairoi22]

Here's my (quite unfinished) techtree edited a little to fit with the units (no, I didn't make them together or on the same time...):

Tech. Prerequisite 1. Prerequisite 2. Leads to….
Tool Making. Nil. Nil. Archery, The Plow, Bronze Smelting.

Alphabet. Nil. Nil. Writing, Map Making, Mathematics.

Copper (1st mil. tech). Tool Making. Nil. Bronze Smelting.

Bargaining/Commerce/ Bartering. Nil. Nil. Currency, Potter’s Wheel, Vertical Loom/Commercial Textile Production.

Ceremonial Burial. Nil. Nil. Mysticism.

Pottery. Nil. Nil. Potter’s Wheel, Iron Forging.

The Sail. Nil. Nil. Map Making.

Mathematics. Alphabet. Nil. Siege Warfare, Astronomy, Education.

Agriculture (Farming). Nil. Nil. The Plow.

Animal Husbandry. Nil. Nil. Chariots.

Textiles. Nil. Nil. Vertical Loom.

The Wheel. Nil. Nil. Chariots, Potter’s Wheel.

Rubble Structures. Nil. Nil. Masonry.

Potter’s Wheel. The Wheel/ Pottery. Bargaining. Seafaring.

Map Making. Alphabet. The Sail. The Naval Ram.

Mysticism. Ceremonial Burial. Nil. Philosophy, Polytheism, Astronomy.

The Plow. Agriculture. Tool Making. Crop Rotation.

(The )Naval Ram(ming). Map Making. ?. Naval Architecture.

Masonry. Rubble Structures. The Wheel. Construction, Siege Warfare.

Warrior Code. Nil. Nil. Archery, Monarchy.

Naval Architecture. Mathematics (?). (The )Naval Ram(ming). Seafaring.

Writing. Alphabet. Nil. Code of Laws.

Code of Laws. Writing. Nil. Literacy, Monarchy.

Bronze Smelting. Tool Making. Copper. Iron Forging.

Siege Warfare. Masonry. Mathematics. Ballistics, Naval Tactics.

Vertical Loom/ Commercial Textile Production. Textiles. Bargaining/Commerce/ Bartering. ?.

Horseback Riding. Chariots. Nil. Mounted Tactics.

Archery. Warrior Code. Tool Making. Horseback Archery, Feudalism.

Crop Rotation. The Plow. Mysticism. ?.

(Iron) Forging. Bronze Smelting. Pottery. Bridge Building, Metallurgy.

Moldboard Plow. Iron Forging. The Plow. ?.

Monarchy. Code of Laws. Warrior Code. Feudalism.

Iron Weapons. Iron Forging. Warrior Code.
Chariots. Animal Husbandry. The Wheel. Mounted Tactics.

Literacy. Code of Laws. Nil. Philosophy.

Astronomy. Mysticism. Mathematics. Physics.

Mounted Tactics. Horseback Riding. Warrior Code. Horse Archery, Chivalry.

Horse Archery. Mounted Tactics. Archery. ?.

Horse Barding. Mounted Tactics. Iron Weapons. Chivalry.

Feudalism. Monarchy. Archery. Chivalry (Ballistics).

Seafaring. Naval Architecture. Potter’s Wheel. Star Navigation, Naval Tactics.

Astronomy (Astrology). Mysticism. Mathematics. Star Navigation.

Naval Tactics. Seafaring. Siege Warfare (?). Greek Fire.

Star Navigation. Seafaring. Astronomy. ?.

Philosophy. Literacy. Mysticism. Ethics, Education.

Education. Philosophy. Mathematics. Physics, Greek Fire.

Greek Fire. Naval Tactics. Education. ?.

Chivalry. Horse Barding. Feudalism.Leadership.

Physics. Education. Star Navigation. Gunpowder, Metallurgy, Ballistics.

(If it is to messy, I can upload a Word-file (*.doc))

EDIT: I already did. Next post

EDIT2: I have seperated: tech. preq1. preq2. leads to.

SO f.x.

Chivalry. Code of Laws (?). Legislature / Peace Pacts. Castles, rockthrowing

Means that the Tech in question is "Chivalry". Its first prerequiste, "Code of Laws" is very uncertain and up for discussion. Chivalry's second prerequiste is "Legislature" OR "Peace Pacts" (I'm not sure which one to choose). Chivalry Leads to "Castles" AND "Rockthrowing".

Comments are welcome!

[hetairoi22]

Here's the doc file (Word 2000):

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Rosacrux
With those in mind, the timeframe should be set... hhmm.. let's see, a start at 2000 BC or something like that and an end at ...the fall of Rome? Or the establishment of Constantinople? Ideas about that?

The oldest of the civilizations currently being discussed in the other thread all started around 3000 BC (Egypt, Harappan, Sumer, Minoan), so that would be a logical starting point. A good endyear would indeed be around the time of the fall of Rome, around 500 AD...

[Wernazuma III]

I agree with Locutus here about the starting point of the mod, about the end: what about the arab conquests, more precisely the conquest of Syria (~660) to mark the end?

[hetairoi22]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
I agree with Locutus here about the starting point of the mod, about the end: what about the arab conquests, more precisely the conquest of Syria (~660) to mark the end?

If so, I think that there must be one more age... the Arabs don't really fit into the Classical Age... Maybe the Age of Conquest (Arab conquest, Barbarian conquests in Europe...) or the Dark Age...

I like the idea, BUT is it now really Ancient? More like medieval...

Personally I think the mod should stop around 400...

Any thoughts?