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**Ray K** · November 20, 2001, 17:02

Re: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod

Originally posted by Cossack
This mod adds copper, zinc and nickel resources to civ III with the resource statistics alterable using the editor until a good balance can be found. There is also a silver bonus resource although I cannot work out why it wont appear on the map.

I would make the resource improvements minimal for zinc & nickel (maybe one extra trade), but copper should get at least two extra trade since it is also a luxury resource.

Copper affects the gameplay at the start possibly slowing down the start of the bronze age due to the time it takes to access the copper ore as I have linked copper to most of the bronze age units and copper is also a requirement for many modern units (electronics).

Great idea! I love the notion of copper being useful early (bronze), then becoming obsolete with iron before finally becoming useful again with electronics!

Also, if phalanx/hoplites are now dependent on bronze, then you need to make iron-using versions (same stats) of them with the discovering of iron-working. Otherwise, no one would be able to build hoplites if they have iron but not bronze. The bronze versions should upgrade to the iron versions for neglible cost.

Zinc is the colour of sphalerite (metallic brown), the main zinc ore but this resource has not been playtested but is a requirement for some middle and industrial age units.

Nickel is metallic blue and is a requirement for many modern units (see the civilopedia) but also has not been playtested so any comments on nickel and zinc would be appreciated.

I wonder if adding zinc & nickel might be overkill, and if the AI will fight for them.

Anyway here are the files (graphics, civilopedia and pedialcons) for copper, nickel, zinc and silver.

Notes
Changed gold so it occurs in deserts, such as western Australia (Kalgoorlie, West Africa and Nevada);
Oil so it occurs in sea squares;
Coal so it occurs in hills if it didn't before;
Aluminium occurs in jungle (most bauxite occurs in tropical weathering environments);
and horses and aluminium so they don't occur in hills as this appears to provide more space for other resource types as a lot occur in hills.

About oil in sea squares -- you might want to make this a separate "ocean oil" resource with the same graphic, and have it not be visible until refining. That way, our bronze age workers don't get any use from it.

Overall, these are well thought-out additions. I plan on incorporating them soon. Thanks again.

Copper
Strategic Resource
Requirements: Bronze Working
Occurrence = 240 (seems to be the best) Fairly abundant copper
Disappearance Probability 300

Terrain: hills and mountains
Shields 1
Commerce 1
Civilopedia GOOD_Copper

Units requiring copper
Spearmen (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron, but if you have iron then the more expensive swordsmen are available anyway)
Chariot (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Archer (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Horsemen (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Hoplite (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
War chariot (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)

Unplaytested units requiring copper
Infantry
Radar Artillery
Carrier
Submarine
Destroyer
Battleship
AEGIS Cruiser
Nuclear Submarine
Fighter
Bomber
Helicopter
Jet fighter
F-15
Stealth fighter and bomber
Colossus

Non-playtested Resources

Zinc
Strategic Resource
Requirements: Metallurgy (possibly earlier would be better to include musketmen, frigates etc.)
Occurrence = 160
Disappearance Probability 400

Terrain: Hills and Mountains
Shields 1
Commerce 1
Civilopedia GOOD_Zinc

Units requiring zinc
Cannon
Riflemen
Artillery
Infantry

Nickel
Strategic Resource
Requirements: Metallurgy (possibly earlier would be better)
Occurrence = 160
Disappearance Probability 400

Terrain: Hills and Mountains
Shields 1
Commerce 1
Civilopedia GOOD_Nickel

Units requiring Nickel
Riflemen
Artillery
Radar Artillery
Destroyer
Infantry
Tank
Panzer
Mech Infantry
Carrier
Submarine
Destroyer
Battleship
Nuclear Submarine

Silver
Bonus Resource
For some reason this doesn't appear.
Terrain: Hills, mountains and desert
Commerce +2 (half of gold)

civ3mod.bic file has some unit characteristic changes but nothing drastic and there are some changes to the English that you may wish to change back.

Cheers

The English Cossack

**Pyrodrew** · November 20, 2001, 18:56

Good work, but I think you have FAR TOO MANY units requiring Zinc, Nickel, & Copper. You also bring up a good point that we should have and "either or" option available in the editor.

**Cossack** · November 21, 2001, 04:24

Re: Re: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod

Originally posted by Ray K

I would make the resource improvements minimal for zinc & nickel (maybe one extra trade), but copper should get at least two extra trade since it is also a luxury resource.

I will agree with you regarding copper, copper is a far larger market than nickel and zinc and probably deserves the extra trade point. I'll make the change.

Originally posted by Ray K
Great idea! I love the notion of copper being useful early (bronze), then becoming obsolete with iron before finally becoming useful again with electronics!

Also, if phalanx/hoplites are now dependent on bronze, then you need to make iron-using versions (same stats) of them with the discovering of iron-working. Otherwise, no one would be able to build hoplites if they have iron but not bronze. The bronze versions should upgrade to the iron versions for neglible cost.

In my first real game I have found that this has not been a problem as swordsmen have been available to a player with iron while spearmen are available to the player with copper, the only difference is the production cost. However, I see what you are getting at. As I noted in the first message an either or (copper or iron) resource requirement option would be useful.

Originally posted by Ray K
I wonder if adding zinc & nickel might be overkill, and if the AI will fight for them.

Yet to see if the AI will fight for them, I only saw zinc for the first time last night, it looked pretty good. However the nickel graphic was linked to horses instead of the blue metallic ore in the resources file, I corrected the error but then nickel did not show up, but I think that is because it is a saved game. I will post a new resources mod when I find out what's happening to the silver.

Zinc is actually meant to be a zinc lead or lead zinc resource as the two tend to occur together in real life but I haven't got round to adjusting the graphic for lead. As a result I don't think it is overkill, and most of the units requiring zinc really require lead. Most modern naval units will require zinc unless they want to rust out, so for the moment I think its o.k., I need to test it some more. For example in the game modern armour requires aluminium, I'm not sure that this is true, I think modern armour actually uses various alloys including nickel in reality.

Originally posted by Ray K
About oil in sea squares -- you might want to make this a separate "ocean oil" resource with the same graphic, and have it not be visible until refining. That way, our bronze age workers don't get any use from it.

Good idea.

Originally posted by Ray K
Overall, these are well thought-out additions. I plan on incorporating them soon. Thanks again.

Thanks for all you constructive comments.

Would like to thank Plutarch for his advice when I was developing this mod.

Cheers

The English Cossack

**Ray K** · November 21, 2001, 10:59

Re: Re: Re: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod

Originally posted by Cossack

In my first real game I have found that this has not been a problem as swordsmen have been available to a player with iron while spearmen are available to the player with copper, the only difference is the production cost. However, I see what you are getting at. As I noted in the first message an either or (copper or iron) resource requirement option would be useful.

Well, I've put some more thought into this change, and I still have some reservations about making so many units dependent on copper, zinc or nickel. Although I understand and appreciate your attention to accuracy (always a good thing), I think it could have serious gameplay ramifications.

It seems likely that a small civilization would be very restricted in the number of units it could build and this would be a big disadvantage.

With copper, this could happen early on if a civ does not start near copper deposits. Although historically accurate, the mechanics of the game make it unworkable. In Civ3, you start with only one city and therefore have access to a very limited number of terrain tiles. The chances of not getting copper in the game are very high.

In the real world, copper-age cultures already had many settlements with abundant access to copper in their region, not just one city. The requirement that they use copper for weapons was balanced with the fact that they already had access to a wide area of land from which to get copper. Implementing a realistic copper restriction in Civ3 without giving the ancient civs access to a far greater reach of land (say, by starting the game with 4 settlers) might make the game less balanced.

As far as zinc & nickel, I am concerned that making so many units dependent on them will make it easy for the player to stifle the military capability of the AI in the late game. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

However, I think copper can have an important place in Civ3. At a minimum, it is a luxury resource and would be a cool resource requirement for building the Research Lab, SETI or the Colossus (!).

These are thought-provoking ideas, and that makes them good ones.

Regards,
Ray
[/QUOTE]

**CountZero** · November 21, 2001, 11:33

If the "Ocean Oil" is ment to be a resource, how are we supposed to get to it. As far as I know, the only way to claim a resource is to build a a road to it. There is no way to build a road to a Ocean Square, unless there is an aspect to the game I have not seen yet.

CountZero

**Cossack** · November 21, 2001, 11:56

Re: Re: Re: Re: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod

Originally posted by Ray K

Well, I've put some more thought into this change, and I still have some reservations about making so many units dependent on copper, zinc or nickel. Although I understand and appreciate your attention to accuracy (always a good thing), I think it could have serious gameplay ramifications.

It seems likely that a small civilization would be very restricted in the number of units it could build and this would be a big disadvantage.

Small civilization, Ray this means that you are losing doesn't it!

Originally posted by Ray K
With copper, this could happen early on if a civ does not start near copper deposits. Although historically accurate, the mechanics of the game make it unworkable. In Civ3, you start with only one city and therefore have access to a very limited number of terrain tiles. The chances of not getting copper in the game are very high.

Actually this is quite a good point, as if you don't have copper it can be difficult to be so aggressive early on, but don't civilizations encounter these problems etc. in reality. The AI seems to survive pretty well without copper and will bombard you with warriors during the early stages, often taking your cities. Actually in my playtesting so far the problem is that by the time you access the copper ore (if it is some distance away) technology has progressed far enough so that iron has become available. If you like this varied option it is o.k., in my current game I lost copper after a number of turns, but then iron became available and I survived without copper.

Originally posted by Ray K
In the real world, copper-age cultures already had many settlements with abundant access to copper in their region, not just one city. The requirement that they use copper for weapons was balanced with the fact that they already had access to a wide area of land from which to get copper. Implementing a realistic copper restriction in Civ3 without giving the ancient civs access to a far greater reach of land (say, by starting the game with 4 settlers) might make the game less balanced.

Not being an archeologist I couldn't comment, but I could alter the mod so that copper dependant units only occur later in the industrial and modern eras.

The only thing I can add is that trade in metals was commonplace in the ancient era and you can do this in the game, if you really need a resource you should be able to trade something for it in civ III. The same argument can be made for iron, can you survive without it but in this mod there are an number of resources at an early stage so hopefully you should be able to trade one of your resources for another resource. There is another thread that discusses this at length somewhere. I have set the copper abundance parameter to 240 which means that there should be at least 24 copper resources in the world.

Originally posted by Ray K
As far as zinc & nickel, I am concerned that making so many units dependent on them will make it easy for the player to stifle the military capability of the AI in the late game. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I'm just getting into this phase of playtesting so hopefully soon I will be able to give you a more informed opinion.

Forgot to add in the original note that copper is required to build the Colossus, incidently it was just after I built it that I lost my copper resource, maybe that was pure coincidence only.

Kind regards

The English Cossack

**Ray K** · November 21, 2001, 12:52

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod

Originally posted by Cossack

Small civilization, Ray this means that you are losing doesn't it!

Yes, but even small civilizations have access to copper. However, the Civ3 map breaks down the world into tiles in which only one resource is available. In the real world, a region of hills (=one tile on Civ3 map) might have gold, iron, and copper. So a small civ in the real world has much easier access to common metals like copper.

For this point, I am leaning towards making copper a luxury resource in general and a strategic resource only for special early-game improvements (Colossus) or late-game improvements where a Civ has access to more tiles.

It's not that I don't think that copper resources are a bad idea. On the contrary, I like it. But the compromises made in the Civ3 game work against making copper a strategic resource for the early game.

Actually this is quite a good point, as if you don't have copper it can be difficult to be so aggressive early on, but don't civilizations encounter these problems etc. in reality.

In reality, though, early civs had easy access to copper. It may be that we can simply assert that copper is assumed to be abundant enough for a civ's normal needs (weapons), but that a copper resource tile is needed if they want to have enough excess ore to warrant luxury bonuses or for something monumental like the Colossus. With this rationale, you could reduce its frequency on the map as well, if that made it easier to fit in the other ores.

The AI seems to survive pretty well without copper and will bombard you with warriors during the early stages, often taking your cities. Actually in my playtesting so far the problem is that by the time you access the copper ore (if it is some distance away) technology has progressed far enough so that iron has become available. If you like this varied option it is o.k., in my current game I lost copper after a number of turns, but then iron became available and I survived without copper.

Not being an archeologist I couldn't comment, but I could alter the mod so that copper dependant units only occur later in the industrial and modern eras.

I'm not suggesting you change the mod. I will probably be "picking and choosing" what I like from everyone's mods, so these are based so much on individual preference. I simply appreciate the good ideas.

**Ray K** · November 21, 2001, 12:58

Originally posted by CountZero
If the "Ocean Oil" is ment to be a resource, how are we supposed to get to it. As far as I know, the only way to claim a resource is to build a a road to it. There is no way to build a road to a Ocean Square, unless there is an aspect to the game I have not seen yet.

CountZero

Very good point, although Civ1 had a bug in which you could build roads in ocean squares!

At a minimum, you could at least get the additional shields from working the square.

Another problem caused by making "Ocean Oil" a separate resource from "Oil" is that it couldn't be used to satisfy the prerequisites for units and improvements that require "Oil". But since you can't build a road to it anyway, it's a moot point.

But getting the extra shields from working the square would still be a plus. Also, "Refining" was the wrong advance. I think that "Miniaturization" is the proper advance, since that is when you can build the "Offshore Platform"

**Harlan** · November 21, 2001, 13:18

Ray K,
Hi, I like some ideas of your mod but I also have a few quibbles. I'd posted elsewhere some ideas about changing resources in the game, maybe you'd want to incorporate some of these:

1. I see the need for two new strategic resources. First is Tin. Why Tin, you ask? In the same way that Saltpeter is the limiting feature in the making of gunpowder, tin was the limiting factor in the making of bronze. In history people traded far and wide to get tin - for instance mediterranean powers going thousands of miles into uncivilized lands to trade with tribal people in southern England for tin. Tin would be very common since one doesn't want to trip up civs too much early. It would be needed for some bronze age units.

2. Second needed strategic resource: Timber. In ancient times, not all civs could build navies - only civs with access to very long and broad timber could build ships. Compare for instance Phoenicia which became a huge naval power because of their forests, and Egypt, which had to hire out mercanaries for virtually all their naval needs cos they had no forests at all. All ships up to Ironclad would need this. Perhaps Catapult and a few other things as well.

3. Luxury resources should occasionally come later with certain technologies, and should disappear over time even more than strategic resources do. Think about it. People's tastes in luxuries changed greatly over time. Silks were the end all be all luxury for a while in ancient times, but now are no big deal. Spices used to be incredibly important to keep food from rotting on long voyages, but died out in importance with refrigeration and so forth. There should be some modern luxuries in the game as the old ones die out - tobacco, opium, coffee, exotic fruits, and so forth.

What would be the impact on gameplay? You'd have to be on your toes more to keep your civ happy. The trade situation would be more fluid.

-----

Now, given that, I see that you've gone for Copper instead of Tin. The one nice thing about Copper is how it does "bounce back" in importance later on. But I do think Tin was the really vital resource in the Bronze Age, and Copper at that time is better represented as a Bonus Resource.

I also think that one should be very limited in the number of ancient units that require Copper (or, replace with Tin). You have way too many. That far back, its virtually impossible to trade with other civs, because there aren't roads connecting each other's capitals yet.

If I look at this list:

Spearmen (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron, but if you have iron then the more expensive swordsmen are available anyway)
Chariot (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Archer (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Horsemen (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Hoplite (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
War chariot (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)

Horsemen and Chariots, are already tough enough to get Horse for. You wouldn't want a unit that far back needing two resources. Archer - that doesn't really need a lot of metal in the first place. So you're left with Spearmen and Hoplite, maybe some other special units (Immortals for instance?). Add Colossus, and that should be enough, IMHO. Perhaps also put another prereq to Iron Working, so the Bronze Age lasts longer.

This way, its good to get Copper (or Tin), but if you don't, life goes on. Unless you need it for your special unit.

Zinc and Nickel I must say I'm ignorant about their strategic uses. Perhaps you could fill in my missing knowledge on these.

I also think that if you go for offshore oil, it should be as a Bonus Resource with very good stats, since one can't actually build a road to it. And the frequency and disappearance rates of some of the other resources need to be changed - I hear alot of complaints about how Oil and Rubber especially are too rare and disappear too fast.

**Ray K** · November 21, 2001, 15:45

Originally posted by Harlan
Ray K,
Hi, I like some ideas of your mod but I also have a few quibbles. I'd posted elsewhere some ideas about changing resources in the game, maybe you'd want to incorporate some of these:

Harlan,
Good comments, but this mod is Cossack's.

Also, I'm kind of leaning against adding the early resources because (copper, tin, etc) simply because they were so common. It is not unrealistic to assume that they are simply available to everyone.

I still like Copper for a luxury resource, though, and for the Colossus (it is a wonder, after all).

**Harlan** · November 21, 2001, 20:24

Oops,
Sorry about that - I was thinking about Ray's last post when I typed that!

Copper was common, but tin wasn't common at all. In the ancient Med world, virtually the only sources of tin were two spots in Iberia, one in Brittany and one in southern England. So places like Egypt or Turkey had to go reaaally far for their tin.

That's why I'm arguing for tin as a strategic resource, cos you have to have it to make bronze, and it by far was the limiting factor of tin or copper.

**Ruiner** · November 21, 2001, 20:55

Hello,

You might have covered this, but here goes: If you make oil available in sea squares, be sure to increase its appearance as well. I could be wrong but I believe the game only allows a set number of resource types to be on the map at a given time so there could be a situation where oil occurs almost entirely at sea, where it won't be accessible.

Adam

**Pyrodrew** · November 21, 2001, 22:57

Well, I've put some more thought into this change, and I still have some reservations about making so many units dependent on copper, zinc or nickel. Although I understand and appreciate your attention to accuracy (always a good thing), I think it could have serious gameplay ramifications. Horsemen and Chariots, are already tough enough to get.

Exactly. The reason I objected was also for gameplay balance.

Regarding Oil in the Ocean - Bad Idea. I liked it at first too, but it creates too many problems. 1st, I've seen too many posts from newbies just in the general forum saying, "Why is their oil in the water?! I can't reach it. Firaxis fix this!" 2nd, as oil spots disappear from the land they will start to appear in the water... soon the only oil that exists is in the water... unreachable. 3rd, you would have to increase oil's appearance ratio to offset it's uselessness when it appears in the coast/sea. However, a Pangea map will have FAR less coast/sea than Archipelago will. Thus, you will never have a balanced amount of oil if you place oil in the ocean... unfortunately. Maybe the upcoming patch will provide more opportunities for this work correctly... until then it's just not a good idea.

**Travathian** · November 22, 2001, 00:42

I think you all are letting things get a little out of hand. Firaxis has specifically said that a number of units were designed to be built with no special resources simply because they realize that there will be games when certain strategic resources are not available to certain civs.

By adding too many strategic resources things become overly complicated, and the value of certain things becomes unbalanced.
You can argue til your blue in the face about history and realism, but the simple matter is this a game, and a balanced one. Don't to badly upset the balance or it becomes unplayable.

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MOD: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources

MOD: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources

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