MOD: Long Winded Changes Mod: Improvements increasing Balance, Accuracy, and Fun

[LordLynch64]

Hey folks, I have played all 3 civs but have very little expeirence in programing. I was just wondering if there was a way to change the turn entervals from 100 years to 1 year and slow down the science rate. Therefore extending the ancient era but with out having excelerated science. Also creating a more relaxed and less rushed ancient and mideval period. I am aware of the option being open in the civ2 editor.

Any ways just like to say I enjoy the witty bantter and keep it up.

[Timeline]

Hey, I have an idea for you! How about decreasing the cost of nukes, and giving them a better chance to kill units!

Looks like your mod is about the best so far and the most balanced. Good Job!!

[Plutarck]

LordLynch64: I'm afraid that's another feature that Civ2 had that Civ3 currently doesn't. Only way is for someone to hack the .exe to change that. You can't even change the date when the game ends in the editor

Timeline: Unfortunately the effects of nuclear weapons can't be edited in anyway (yet another indication the game wasn't made with the mod community in mind), however with the addition of the Atomic Bomb unit nothing may need changing. However I might play with the Tactical Nuke just a bit, but we'll see.

And thanks for the compliment! I appreciate it

[GodSpawn]

I'm getting Civ3 tomorrow (UK) - I wonder if I should install this mod immediately, or should I try it without first?

[LordLynch64]

Well Thanks anyway I gues it was a thought. Hey if you know anybody who can hack the program let me know.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by CobraA1
Maybe you guys haven't been reading enough on these forums - the AI is designed to adapt to whatever mod you may have. It doesn't have to be changed for new mods (at least theoretically).

Ah, maybe you haven't been reading enough because Soren stated that the AI will not use some features, like infantry being able to clear jungle or build fortifications, because it was not programmed to expect units to do these things.

I agree with Pembleton, on some things the mod makers should wait until a patch or two is issued before changing corruption or other essential game areas.

Hmm, amusing that people complain about corruption so much. I guess they want to easily win the game as usual in Civ2?

If anything corruption should go down with various government types depending on what era you are in. A Democracy in the Middle ages might only reduce overall corruption by 50% while a democratic government in the Industrial age will reduce it 65% and a Democracy in the Modern age will reduce it by 80%. Would help balance the game and show how modern communications help spread the word (good and bad) about politicians.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by GodSpawn
I'm getting Civ3 tomorrow (UK) - I wonder if I should install this mod immediately, or should I try it without first?

Try it without the mod. You may find you like it as is without needing to "fix the game" so it plays according to your style instead of trying to find a different style to play the game.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by MicMc

I don't know what is possible in creation/alteration of small wonders (if additions are possible) but for corruption a mid-game possiblity would be the creation of trade-guilds. (more trained people less waste, and better money counters less waste). In a modern era unions could be created either as a city improvement or as a small wonder with the same effect (based on number of factories in an empire?)

Hmm, you want to add labor unions as ways to REDUCE corruption? You are kidding right?

The police station could easily pull double duty or they could add some sort of "Town Hall" improvement that would reduce corruption. I like the idea of the artisian's guild in the middle ages however.

[Plutarck]

GodSpawn: Try it out the normal way and see how you like it. You might be one of the people that think it's really top notch, in which case you won't need a mod.

But if you find the game lacking in various ways then you can try a mod to put things the way they should be.

Ozymandous:

A) As for the "worker abilitys" I considered them and have chosen to remove all but the clear jungle ability from the swordsman-type units. I retained that solely because "I like it". I hate jungles, I cannot deny, and it's not exactly an unbalancing aspect. But given, the AI will not take advantage of it. It's such a minor change that most of the time it won't even be used, but I think it adds a nice touch.

However I have a new unit planned that I hope the AI will use to actually build forts, but we'll see. The stupid Terraform AI strategy requires ALL of the worker abilitys to be flagged except Build City. Extremely annoying, but what can you do.

B)

I agree with Pembleton, on some things the mod makers should wait until a patch or two is issued before changing corruption or other essential game areas.

This makes absolutely no sense. It's not as if once you put out a mod suddenly the game becomes frozen and required to use those changes forever. If a patch comes out and reduces corruption in a way that makes the mod reduce corruption too much, you just put out a new version.

If you try it and don't like it then rollback to the game's defaults.

Would it not be rediculous to just sit on your hands and not change the game to make it more enjoyable, in the hopes that 2-4 months from now an "official patch" will suddenly improve the game?

And as for this mod, you might notice that the change to corruption is actually quite minor, and the only way it could possibly reduce the challenge is if the computer was not equally effected by corruption. According to Investigate City this is not the case, and according to every report I have heard reduced corruption does not make the game easier to win, just less frustrating to play.


C)

If anything corruption should go down with various government types depending on what era you are in. A Democracy in the Middle ages might only reduce overall corruption by 50% while a democratic government in the Industrial age will reduce it 65% and a Democracy in the Modern age will reduce it by 80%. Would help balance the game and show how modern communications help spread the word (good and bad) about politicians.

Reducing corruption by using the Reduce Corruption flag is the next to last way I want to alter how corruption works, but of course the game offers absolutely no option. Out of the last 20 ideas I've heard not one single one is actually possible or effective, leaving corruption reducing improvements and increasing the optimum city count on maps the only options.

-Your idea for instance: not possible.
-Decreasing the distance from capital penalty in any way: not possible.
-Varying the decrease in corruption given by certain improvements: not possible.
-Decreasing empire-wide corruption with any kind of building or technology: not possible.
-Adding more than 6 different settings for corruption that governments use: not possible.
-Changing corruption based on difficulty level: not possible.
-Decreasing Waste sepperate from corruption: not possible.


So we're left with the incredibly uncreative option of adding buildings which reduce corruption, even though their effect seems rediculously small.

But the most important note is that, if you try it when the new version comes out, you will notice that corruption comes into play later than it usually does, but it remains in play. The size of your empire increases only a little bit.

I believe that in this next version there will be 1 corruption reducing improvement in each age, buildable in all citys. Also there will probably be 1-2 small wonders which can be built which have a kind of new way to reduce corruption, but I have more testing to do.




Next Version Notice: Due to some unavoidable slowdowns and the need for some additional experiments the next version may have to wait until after the weekend. I feel that sacrificing quality to rush the job would be extremely counterproductive and even hypocritical, and I think that with what's coming you'll all agree that it's worth the wait for the new aspects that are introduced to the game.

I'm not hacking the .exe or anything, so it's nothing that you wouldn't think the game engine doesn't allow, but I will STRETCH the limits of the existing constraints to their MAX and use the pre-existing features in new ways.

I won't even be able to fit it all into the next update, unless you want to wait a week for it


*sneaks off to play his early birthday present, Empire Earth*

[T__]

One minor detail you might consider to make part of your mod, flagging Artillery, Radar Artillery and Workers for Airlifting, if it possible to airlift a tank battalion, why not a arty battery.

Another fact you might find useful is that battleships are powered by steam turbines, fueled first by coal then oil:

"The design called for ships capable of 25 knots to form a fast wing to the Grand Fleet. To achieve this speed the Queen Elizabeth class were the first British ships with oil-fired boilers. This allowed for a reduction in weight, increase in boiler efficiency, and a higher sustained speed."

So different versions of the battleship using coal, oil or nuclear might be an idea.

Another idea might be to require iron for everything that needs steel, as steel can't be made without it, and more importantly having one more important resource in the industrial, modren ages might make it easier to trade for other needed resources like Aluminum

btw you might want to look at this site for innformation about naval vessels:

http://www.warships1.com/index_ships.htm

T

[Plutarck]

T:

I hadn't noticed that bit about airlifting. Hadn't paid any attention to it, but you're right. I've also played with some Load options also.

Tanks aren't airliftable anymore. I'd prefer to be able to add a special "heavy cargo" option so only plains with the same flag could carry them, but there are all kind of things I'd like that aren't possible

I guess the question is, what kind of plains do those airports use anyway? But it's either flag artillery or remove tanks...hmm...

I think a good rule of thumb for Airlift will be whatever a conventional cargo aircraft can carry. Only the big cargo planes (someone help me out with their name...is it C-17?) can carry things like tanks.


And here's an odd one I just noticed. Did you know that Tanks, Mech Infantry, and Artillery units are not flagged as Wheeled? But how is it that the game knows not to allow them in jungles or mountains?

...it doesn't! AHA!

That would be a bug in the game, or perhaps a late addition they didn't mention, but it don't make any sense. Well now I'm adding the Wheeled flag to a few units again, which is how it should be.

More info on that when I release it.


I've added 1 unit so far which will use Iron and Coal and comes between the Ironclad and the Destroyer. It comes available with steel.

I had thought it rather odd that somehow after the advent of Steel iron is no longer required to build units. I'll be adding Iron to quite a few units, especially Tanks. Germany invaded Norway largely because they wanted access to norwegian steel. Which means it must have been a resource, and as adding Steel as a resource would be dumb, clearly Iron is what is needed to make tanks. It's too bad you can't allow an improvement to create resources, because that would open SO many possibilitys! Like a Refinery which takes crude oil and turns it into gasoline (for vehicles and aircraft), so only some early warships could use oil in it's crude form. And Steel Mills to turn steel to iron, a late-modern Synthetic Factory to create gems/oil/rubber, etc. But of course that isn't possible either...dammit.


So iron will definately have far more value in the industrial age. In the modern age I'm considering adding Titanium...but how rare is that, anyway?


BTW: T, would you liked to be listed in the credits as just T or as something else?

[CountZero]

optimum city count on Huge Map

I think the optimum city count on the Huge map needs to be increased. On the game I am playing now I have 50+ cites and I have just entered the industrial age. I have personaly built every city and have not taken any by influnace or military. Four of the computer oponants have more cites than me and there is still a lot of land with no cities on them. My out lieing cities have all the corruption ruducing buildings except Police Stations(I have not discovered Communisium yet) and I am still running 50% corruption/waste. (I am a Democracy BTW)

I can email you my saved game if you like to see it.

[BoredGamer]

Modern Ships

Based on my time in the navy, I have a few suggestions for modern ships

We can start with Aegis Cruisers,
They are definately NOT nuclear powered, they are gas turbine. They are primarily a ANTI-AIR platform, but one thing they should be able to do is carry cruise missles.

Carriers, There should be 2 kinds, the WW2 variety which could hold a small number of planes, and the modern type, which ARE nuclear powered, and can hold many more planes.

Subs. There should be 2 types of nuclear subs as well, Fast attack, which is quick, and designed to attack other subs and ships, and Boomers, Which are slow, but are the launch platforms for nuclear missles.

[Optimizer]

Requiring Iron for industrial age units would make perfect sense.

Titanium would be fine as a new strategic resource, needed for some spaseship parts, stealth aircraft and nuclear subs. Can you add new strategic resources without omitting old ones?

Different Carrier and Submarine classes would make sense too.

[Plutarck]

New Version Information: The new version is due out either late today or, mostly likely, tommarrow (tuesday).

There are 12+ new units in the game which allowed major naval rebalancing. Having a navy should now be far more important and useful. They aren't all naval units, and some considerable land balance has been introduced also.

Iron is needed all the way up to the industrial age now.

The new strategic resource is currently useful up until Military Tradition, and still has it's uses well after that. It's prime importance is during the ancient and middle ages.

There are 3 new governments. 1 is a combination of Fascism and Fundamentalism to form a war government for small empires, and the other two (one is an upgrade for the other) is geared for large empires and is the middle-ground between peaceful Democracy and the more war-like Communism. I hope to give more attention to the government system in the next version.

There are 3 new improvements, once which is government specific. There is now also 1 corruption reducing improvement in each age, but the ancient age is the same as the other 3 ages get all the improvements.

1 new ancient age wonder. I will probably introduce more wonders in the later ages in the next version.


There are a whole slew of other additions and changes, but you'll all have to wait until tonight or tommarrow to see it.


I have 16 steps to deploy the new version (yes, it needs that many), but I managed to finish 5 of them in less than 2 hours last night, and those are the ones that required the most thought. I just need to do some text editing and "make sure the game still works" testing, so it's just a matter of time now