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**Bakunine** · November 12, 2001, 11:00

Haven't d/l and read the readme yet but the changes you made are balancing and wise. However won't it screw a bit the gameplay of the AI?

In the games you have already made have you noticed if the AI adapt to the new rules (like building more number of units that have been improved)?

Thanks for the mod. Gonna try it in my next game anyway but if you (or someone) can post feedback on this subject i would be thankfull.

**Wolfshanze** · November 12, 2001, 11:31

Changes...

Hey, I like my Privateer-sinking-Ancient-Galleys!!!!

But seriously... how did you balance out the naval vessels?

Some posting of numbers might be nice!

I haven't seen your numbers at all, maybe you think like me, maybe you don't, but I do know Firaxis will look at the Privateer numbers, but really, the entire naval lineup needs to be looked at.

I've been thinking about changing the naval ratings myself, but I'd like to see how Firaxis "officially" fixes this with a patch.

Currently, the low-end of the naval chart looks like this for attack/defense ratings:
Galley 1/1
Caravel 1/2
Galleon 1/3
Privateer 1/1
Frigate 2/2

I think the low-end should look more like this myself:
Galley 1/1
Caravel 1/2 or 2/2
Galleon 2/2 or 2/3
Privateer 3/2 or 3/3
Frigate 4/4
Of course the later naval vessels will need to be raised accordingly, but I think something like that would be much better than it is now!

**Plutarck** · November 12, 2001, 11:41

Here's the whole readme.txt so you don't have to download the zip to see what it does. It's too big to post

Here's a section on what I did today to balance out naval units:

Quite a few naval unit changes, which will be a temporary fix until new units can be added:

-Caravel has 1 defense instead of 2.

-Frigate has 3 attack instead of 2.

-English Man-O-War now has 4/3/4, which it did before all these changes but not in the original game.

-Reminder: The Privateer has 2/1/3 , which is properly weaker than the Frigate's 3/2/4. 1/1/3 was just too weak as a Galley, Caravel, and Galleon had an even chance of killing it by attacking or by defending. I've considered giving it +1 defense or movement, but it should be thoroughly play-tested as-is first.

-Ironclad has 5 attack instead of 4.

-Submarine is available with Combustion instead of Mass Production, has 7 attack instead of 6, and 6 defense instead of 4. While submarines are dead if they are found the game does not properly simulate how difficult it is to actually find them in the first place. Thus Defense stat must be used instead, so it's higher now.

-Nuclear Submarine was 6/4/3, now it's current stats are 10/6/4. While Nuclear subs aren't really better than their non-nuclear counterparts, the changed stats are to show the fact that the nuclear subs are modern subs while the Submarine is pretty much a late version of a U-Boat.

-Destroyer was 12/8/5 and is now 10/7/5, now becomes available with Mass Production instead of Combustion, and can see submarines which it couldn't before. Formerly it seemed to have had an even chance of killing a Battleship if it attacked first, which is stupid, and now it has an even chance of getting killed by a Submarine if attacked first. Though it should manage to kill the sub if it attacks first.

-AEGIS Cruiser can no still Submarines, which it shouldn't, but this is the only way to balance the Nuclear Submarine as I can't add a Modern Destroyer. Also has 15/12/5 now instead of 12/10/5. Just look on the tech tree where the Destroyer and Battleship become available, and then where the AEGIS becomes available. It will be the upgrade for the Cruiser when units are addable, but until then it is a worthy apponent to the Battleship while being cheaper to build.

Many naval units will be changed a LOT when new units can be added, but this should hold us till a patch or until I figure out where the hidden Civilopedia index is which crashes the game upon certain conditions when new technologys (and maybe units) are added.

As for the AI. It SHOULD adapt and use the altered units properly, as it SHOULD build and use units based on their abilitys and the AI Strategy choosen for those units.

Notice the emphasis on "should", because I don't know that it actually will. Only playtesting will reveal if the AI can figure it out.

**Plutarck** · November 12, 2001, 11:42

NEW!

Here is the new readme.txt for version 0.5!

Oop, forgot to actually post the readme. Here it is instead

First version removed after 360 downloads.
Second version removed after 201 downloads.

**Gaius Marius** · November 12, 2001, 11:49

Prelim thoughts:

I'm going to spend some more time checking this out, but here are my thoughts so far.

You are spot-on with increasing the frequency of Aluminum. Increasing it even more might be warranted - there is TONS of that stuff out there, and the main aluminum-mining areas of the world just happen to have the richest bauxite deposits - they aren't by any stretch the only sources. Of course, it needs to have some value or there's no sense in having it at all, so whatever works.

Courthouses and Police Stations should reduce corruption, giving an ancient and industrial solution. There really needs to be a middle-age solution, and maybe a modern one, but there don't seem to be improvements to match. Thematically, Barracks would make the most sense, but this might make the early game too violent (you would always build barracks, giving you vet units which you can use to expand in a now useful way). As far as time goes, University would seem to be about right - roughly (give or take a century) coincided with the first wave of European expansion. As it stands, colonization under civ3 rules would have been useless. Of course, the colonies didn't have universities, either...

Otherwise, Aqueducts might work, but, like you determined, that doesn't work with rivers.

Cathedrals, maybe? Looks like you tested that and removed them after adding temples and libraries.

I suppose it all boils down to when you want the anti-expansion pressure of corruption to be relieved. If it is at the beginning, go with temples and libraries, and if it is in the middle ages, go with cathedrals and universities. The Church helping keep order makes more sense to me, and I'd definitiely prefer a middle-ages solution to corruption, lest the early game just become a land grab even more than it is. But that's just me. Something about having a progressive reduction in corruption through the ages makes sense to me.

Is it possible (or will it, with a patch, be possible) to add improvements?

Imagine this. In the ancient era, you can build a Council when you have Code of Laws (think of this as a tribal council in the ancient era, City Council in modern times). In the middle ages, you can build a courthouse (link it to Feudalism, or something), Industrial era gives you the police station, and the modern era gives you, say, an FBI Field Office. (Link to Synthetic Fibers - they need Kevlar, or whatever).

Small Wonder "The Supreme Court" or "The Star Chamber" globally reducing corruption would be nice, too, but I doubt this is possible.

Anyway, this seems to make the most sense. In general, though, I don't think corruption is so much of a problem, at least in most eras. Ancient empires I think are limited very effectively. What I have a problem with, is the inability of late medieval and industrial empires to have colonies (cities abroad) that are at all useful, and the inability of a modern democracy to control corruption in a continental empire.

Longwinded, I know. Sorry. I'll come up with more thoughts on the units later. Haven't had time to look at them.

**zeh** · November 12, 2001, 12:12

Hey Plutarck, great job man!!

I've a doubt:
What are the correct Nuclear Submarine A/D/M?
It's 10/6/4 from 11/12/2001 changes or is 8/4/4 that I read at the end of readme.txt?
And a sugestion:
I think oil is needed for post-Synthetic Materials units. I agree that rubber can be raplaced, but I think oil is still largely consumed by this units today.

**Pembleton** · November 12, 2001, 12:32

Originally posted by Bakunine
Haven't d/l and read the readme yet but the changes you made are balancing and wise. However won't it screw a bit the gameplay of the AI?

In the games you have already made have you noticed if the AI adapt to the new rules (like building more number of units that have been improved)?

This is exactly why I never try mods that change anything other than graphics or anything else that will not affect the AI.

I have used mods in the past that changed aspects of a game such as CD's mod for CTP1 but that mod *also* changed the AI to compensate.

Also, there will be many tweaks and changes in the upcoming patches (for example people were modding corruption when this will be changed in the first patch), so I would wait until at least the second patch or so before considering mods that changed gameplay.

I believe I also heard that the AI cannot be changed through the use of standard mods without hacking the game itself, so it may look like all future gameplay mods for Civ3 will never be used unless extensively tested and approved by many players.

**CobraA1** · November 12, 2001, 14:37

Maybe you guys haven't been reading enough on these forums - the AI is designed to adapt to whatever mod you may have. It doesn't have to be changed for new mods (at least theoretically).

**Rhuarc** · November 12, 2001, 14:46

This mod sounds really cool!!! Has anybody tried playing a full game with the mod yet? My only concern is as soon as a patch is released will this mod be updated? Also, does this include new types of governemnt or anything like that? Or does this just fix bugs and gameplay balance issues?

**dannyevilcat** · November 12, 2001, 15:36

in the readme.txt, it says:

"Infantry: Formerly requiring Rubber to build, they no longer do. I'm sorry, but it simply does not make sense that you can't build infantry for lack of rubber. I don't care how bad the effect of STDs are during war-time, rubber isn't a deal breaker!"

However, I'm pretty sure this resource is for all the boots infantry troops need to march with.

**Pembleton** · November 12, 2001, 15:58

Originally posted by CobraA1
Maybe you guys haven't been reading enough on these forums - the AI is designed to adapt to whatever mod you may have. It doesn't have to be changed for new mods (at least theoretically).

You're talking about the wrong guy when it comes to reading these forums. I read these forums too much, and Soren replied *directly to me* when I brought up this point before.

But note the last phrase: "theoretical". Making cities in the middle of nowhere and right in between foreign civs wasn't intended but that's what the AI does. Workers also run back and forth when they have nothing to do instead of being absorbed into a city.

Who knows what other stupidities the AI will do, and many that you may never be aware of, since they may be doing it in a fog of war?

**Plutarck** · November 12, 2001, 16:54

dannyevilcat: Actually...that's an excellant point, LOL. However I'm just gonna say that surely they could have come up with some other kind of shoes. Like Sandals. I for one would be terrified of an army that wore sandals.

And really I just want them to be the defender for civs without strategic resources

zeh: Whatever the Changelog lists is the latest information. What is below is changes I did before starting the changelog, and I figured it wasn't worth the trouble to go down and update them yet as they'll change soon enough.

So the stats of the Nuclear Submarine are 10/6/4.

As for the Oil, I do agree they are used now adays, but only because Oil is so much cheaper. If there was a way I'd just raise the cost of the unit if you didn't have the resource, but that isn't possible YET. What I won't rule out is when it becomes possible to copy the unit, make one require oil like it did before, but make the other not require it but raise the cost to build it.

For now I think it's too severe to be totally unable to build the units without oil, and it helps to aleviate the oil dependence from a gameplay standpoint.

Pembleton: The reason the CTP1 mod changed the AI to compensate is because, if I recall correctly, new units where added in that mod and there was not already a way to choose how the AI would use that unit as part of the unit adding process. It was also because the AI was stupid in various ways

All the units have only been somewhat minorly changed, so even if the AI made no adjustment it wouldn't be too terribly big of a handicap.

My only question, however, is does the AI know how to use Privateers at all? The rest of the units pretty much are the same they were before but with slightly different stats.

At worst the AI will be only at a minor disadvantage. At best it will figure out how to use it just like you will, and the decreases in corruption serves the massively expanding AI more than it will a normal player.

So far I've seen no problem with the AI, but I haven't played all the way to the end with the changes yet.

Gaius Marius:

The reason I removed it from University is something I realized. The Religious and Scientific traits cut the cost of building Temples and Cathedrals and Librarys and Universitys in half. If I added the flag to one of the middle aged ones I'd kind of need to add it to the other to be fair, yet then Religious and Scientific civs would get an even bigger boost because of their cheapness. So an R&S civ could build a Cathedral and Univserity in the same time it took a civ that wasn't R or S to build either one.

I haven't decided if it's minor enough that it won't matter, or if it's even needed at all...though I'm thinking it will be needed.

Anyone have some thoughts about that? Would there be another Middle Age improvement(s) that would make sense to reduce corruption? How about in the Modern Age?

I think what will really be best is when we can add improvements. Then we won't have to scratch our heads trying to figure out what makes sense to reduce corruption without causing more problems than it solves.

Hm...I wonder if some kind of a 2nd Forbidden Palace would work, perhaps in the late Middle Ages or early Industrial? Not sure if the game allows it, however.

Longwinded, I know. Sorry.

Thus the name of the mod

Rhuarc: For now it only changes, but doesn't add anything that wasn't already in the game. As soon as I figure how to buglessly add things like techs, units, and improvements I will. That will hopefully be in a future version.

But nope, no added governments in this one.

**gentleben** · November 12, 2001, 17:15

do the changes to Leo's workshop have any effect on what units you can build and when ? One might consider it a prerequisit like the old M project was for nuclear weapons

any way to change civ attributes ? America and Germany should have commercial..Rome should be expantionist and brittian prob should be religious..Imho

I love what you did with the war charriot!

Any chance of getting forts and colonys to expand your boarders ?

**ajbera** · November 12, 2001, 17:20

Originally posted by Plutarck
As for the Oil, I do agree they are used now adays, but only because Oil is so much cheaper. If there was a way I'd just raise the cost of the unit if you didn't have the resource, but that isn't possible YET. What I won't rule out is when it becomes possible to copy the unit, make one require oil like it did before, but make the other not require it but raise the cost to build it.

I had been thinking along similar lines. One possibility is, if you don't have access to oil but need to make a tank, you must research a tech (synthetic fuels, maybe an offshoot of synthetic materials) that allows you to make that vehicle at a slightly higher cost, simulating the discovery of an alternate fuel to take oil's place. The rub - you need to add techs and alternate units, which will have to wait 'til the editor is fixed.

Another possibility is linking alternate units to similar resources - if, for example, you didn't have access to iron to make that tank, but you did have access to aluminum, making a low-defense skirmish vehicle that can attack at 2/3 tank power, has 1/2 the defense, and +1 movement.

These changes will allow a civ to remain able to have an army/navy/air force without a critical component, but at a cost - either time and money, or a slightly weaker unit.

Announcement

MOD: Long Winded Changes Mod: Improvements increasing Balance, Accuracy, and Fun

MOD: Long Winded Changes Mod: Improvements increasing Balance, Accuracy, and Fun

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