MOD: Long Winded Changes Mod: Improvements increasing Balance, Accuracy, and Fun

[Tauklon]

Acording to this site the AEGIS Cruiser uses gas turbine engines. So just oil should be needed.

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-cru.html

I really like the idea of alternate resources for units. For instance battleships in WWI were all coal/steam powered. I like the addition of resources and luxuries but there should be two ways to build any unit.
I read your list and kept thinking it all made sense. A beta would have really helped. So why did the game get released without a beta?

[Badtz Maru]

I like the changes you made, but there is one thing I noticed that is pretty unbalancing - you gave certain military units the ability to build improvements. This is unfair to the AI as it will not make use of this ability.

[Plutarck]

gentleben: Leo's has no effect on units.

In the editor go to the Civilizations tab and you can change the civs attributes. You can even give a certain civ all the attributes, though that would be kind of cheating if you didn't give them to everyone. And I don't know if it would screw up the AI or not

And ain't that War Chariot great?


ajbera: From an earlier suggestion in the Civfanatics forum I believe coal and iron warships should be added, perhaps at the Steel advance. I too like the ideas of alternate units to simulate that many resources are more convenient than they are neccessary, like Uranium with submarines and AEGIS Cruisers.

We'll see soon enough


Tauklon: Good to know about the AEGIS. Could use some kind of shift later, but now it's just in there to have another reason to have Uranium.

Deadlines is why there weren't betas


Badtz Maru: You make a good point, but now that you mention it...does the AI build forts EVER? I haven't seen it do it yet, but does it do it towards the end of the game?

It's possible that the AI can figure out certain units now have new abilitys, but perhaps that would be giving it too much credit. Playtesting is needing on that subject, so everyone be sure to keep an eye on that.



Here is my current proposed changes for version 0.1.1, so tell me what you think of whether they should be in the next version or not:


-Palace now has 4 Bombard Defense and gives a 25% bonus to defense. 2 defense and 10% bonus was almost entirely unnoticable, so I had to bump it up a bit.

-Aluminum now has been raised up to 160 from 150 previously in this mod. It now has the same commonality as Iron and Horses, though it should still be more common I'll just leave like this. I've considered removing aluminum from the most modern units simulating how common Aluminum has become, which is the same thing the game does with Saltpeter (explained on the Rifleman's entry in the Civilopedia). But I figure the Spaceship is a game-ender so it should require all the resources it does (Aluminum, Uranium, and Rubber) for gameplay reasons...so I'm leaving it alone. It will now appear in the amount 2 for every player, but not every player will necessarily be near a deposit.

-Rubber now has 130 appearance up from 120. Oil has 120 and I figure rubber should be a little more common, but not much, so this does it. You probably won't even notice a difference, but as rubber is needed for some important units and the Spaceship it should be a weensy bit more common.

-Settlers can now Clear Forests and Jungles. The main use is so you can send off a settler and it can clear out a jungle/forest on it's own so it can build a city there. Seems reasonable to me.

-Swordsman, Roman Legions, and Persian Immortals can now Clear Jungles. They do have swords, don't they? They cannot, however, clear Forests, so you can't use them for logging. I gave the special units the ability because they replace the Swordsman, and it makes sense that they both have rather tough slicing weapons, which should be able to cut through trees anyway. The Romans had builders and architects in their ranks anyway, but I've decided not to allow them to build Forts.

Have you noticed that I hate jungles?

[MicMc]

A couple of things, historical n' stuff,

Rubber was needed for modern infantry (defined as 1918 armies) for a number of things, boots were one, but also in ammo protection (before this they were using foils which let the powder go rotten) (not a good thing in trench warfare) but mainly it was used for seals and hoses on engines (componds of rubber that is) so you could get your big breadbox 'tank' to the battlefield and so you could get the supplies to the front on trucks (though horse drawn carts were still sorta the norm) as well as having industrial use which made it possible to produce a million rifles in the first place. Last the field kits of the WWI soldier had rubberized canteens, and a list of gear which made it possible to sit some poor sod out in the mud for 2 months without him dying of disease...cuz WWI general's hated that, they liked the human wave assualt for that sort of thing.

I don't know what is possible in creation/alteration of small wonders (if additions are possible) but for corruption a mid-game possiblity would be the creation of trade-guilds. (more trained people less waste, and better money counters less waste). In a modern era unions could be created either as a city improvement or as a small wonder with the same effect (based on number of factories in an empire?)

Just a thought, I haven't started monkeying with the files yet, I'm still trying to figure out what to do with 10 million captured workers without having 10 mins real time of watching the screen bounce around as they go through thier assigned tasks with all the efficiency of a dead elephant doing crosstich. Yeah I know I could add em to pop's but well, my folks haven't learned to share well.

[Plutarck]

MicMc: Thanks for the information, that's definately something to think about it. Marines and Paratroopers still need rubber (which makes sense), but I'll leave Infantry as-is for until some more debate.



NEW VERSION!

Here are the changes:

11/12/01:

-Palace now has 4 Bombard Defense and gives a 25% bonus to defense. 2 defense and 10% bonus was almost entirely unnoticable, so I had to bump it up a bit.

-Aluminum now has been raised up to 160 from 150 previously in this mod. It now has the same commonality as Iron and Horses, though it should still be more common I'll just leave like this. I've considered removing aluminum from the most modern units simulating how common Aluminum has become, which is the same thing the game does with Saltpeter (explained on the Rifleman's entry in the Civilopedia). But I figure the Spaceship is a game-ender so it should require all the resources it does (Aluminum, Uranium, and Rubber) for gameplay reasons...so I'm leaving it alone. It will now appear in the amount 2 for every player, but not every player will necessarily be near a deposit.

-Rubber now has 130 appearance up from 120. Oil has 120 and I figure rubber should be a little more common, but not much, so this does it. You probably won't even notice a difference, but as rubber is needed for some important units and the Spaceship it should be a weensy bit more common.

-Settlers can now Clear Forests and Jungles. The main use is so you can send off a settler and it can clear out a jungle/forest on it's own so it can build a city there. Seems reasonable to me.

-Swordsman, Roman Legions, and Persian Immortals can now Clear Jungles. They do have swords, don't they? They cannot, however, clear Forests, so you can't use them for logging. I gave the special units the ability because they replace the Swordsman, and it makes sense that they both have rather tough slicing weapons, which should be able to cut through trees anyway. The Romans had builders and architects in their ranks anyway, but I've decided not to allow them to build Forts.

Have you noticed that I hate jungles?

11/13/01:

-BUG FIX: Somehow Barracks got flagged with -2 culture. While an interesting idea it was NOT intended and has been fixed. Barracks now correctly produce 0 culture.

-Factorys and Manufacturing Plant now produce -2 culture each. -1 was just too small to be noticable.

-Coal Plants and the Iron Works small wonder now produce -3 culture, up from -2 culture. A little mroe noticable, but it probably isn't a big deal.

-Recycling Plants now produce -2 pollution.

-Mass Transit now produces -1 pollution. With the above change it might help with pollution a little bit.

More changes may be needed to play with pollution a little, but probably the best is to somehow allow a pollution reducing improvement earlier on. Will have to wait until new improvements can be added, however.


You can download the new version in the first post in this thread.

[Grallon]

Plutark,

regarding that improvement in the middle ages to decrease corruption - how about a Guild Hall - Artisan's or merchants' guilds used to be big during medieval times and exerted social control over their members - thus a reduction in corruption.


G.


PS did you get my email ?

[Plutarck]

Grallon: Yup, checked my email a little before I put out the new version.

Didn't have time to thoroughly consider anything and I wanted to go ahead and push out the new version with the bug fix so as far as I know it's bug free.

Definately liked the reduction in cost to Granary. Didn't think about it till you mentioned it, but I'm considering it now

[xmax]

Naval units movement rate

Great mod Plutarck! I am combining it with other changes I think are appropriate. Among them the naval units movement rates.

Does anyone else think that it shouldn't take destroyer 15 turns to circumvent the Earth (which is how long it takes on huge map)? Throughout the history sea routes were faster and more effective than land routes with difficult terrain or no roads. I decided to roughly double sea units movement rates which takes Frigate to 5 (and hence less than 6 for a cavalry unit on a road) and Destroyer/Battleship to 10 which is much slower than RR available by that time (transport units have one less movement point to make it more realistic).

Also I think Privateer should only be available with Magnetism (they were widely used at the same time as Frigates and Galleons), be very cheap (it is a PRIVAteer and hence costs little for the government to set up), be soundly defeated by Frigates and have a good chance catching and attacking Galleons which is why it should have stats of 3/2/5.

I am yet to play a game with these changes - will let you know then.

[Plutarck]

I'm off to get some sleep, but here are my current changes. Open for debate and discussion, as always.


-AEGIS Cruiser no longer requires Uranium. Through multiple sources, and especially through the information from [currently held till I get the names they want used] who were extremely helpful, I have found that indeed AEGIS Cruisers are not nuclear powered. They have extremely big gas turbines, but not reactors. I have considered giving it 6 movement as part of an increase in movement I'm thinking of giving modern naval units. Depending on the results of my current experimentation it may be part of a much larger improvement of naval warfare. However I will leave it as-is until new units can be added that ensure balance.

-Radar Artillery now has 2 movement. This unit is surely self-propelled, and should obviously be faster than a catapult.

-Rubber is now back to 120 from my previous change to 130. Rubber is naturally rare and should just be left alone.

-Nuclear Submarine now can carry 2 missles.

-Settlers are back to their default, no longer clearing forests or jungles. It turns out that they automatically clear the tile when a city is built. Go figure. Another reason strategy guides are wastes of money.

-Privateers now cost 7 instead of 6. I had assumed they already were differing in cost, but assuming makes and ass out of u and mi after all. This should ensure they are balanced out with other ships.

-ISSUE: Pottery is currently listed as a prerequisite for Map Making, which allows the Harbor, Galley, Great Lighthouse, and world map trading. Should it really be a prereq? I'd love to hear reasons why it should or shouldn't be.

-WOOHOO!: Thanks to my recently aquired ability to Add various things to the game, I will be doing so now. Now we be havin' some REAL fun!

-Added Unit: The Coracle is now available with no prerequisite, costs 2 to build, has 1/1/2, can carry 1 unit, and upgrades to the Galley.

-The Galley no longer sinks in the Sea. Still goes into the drink in oceans, though.

-The Caravel now has 4 movement, up from 3 previously. With stats like 1/1/4 and carrying 3 units, it's not exactly a Super Unit. (I will be introducing the concept of the Super Unit at a later date. Suffice it to say that now you too can attempt to construct a Bismark/Yamato)

[Badtz Maru]

I've seen the AI build fortresses before, but it is rare. They were the first fortresses I had seen in the game (having not built any myself) and it wasn't until a fairly modern era.

I seem to recall word from one of the developers saying that the AI is not capable of using combat units as workers - I think that the AI workers are for the most part work like automated workers for the players.

[MicMc]

Looking at history pottery becomes the 'source' of sea-going/trading cuz it lets you carry your finished goods (that ONLY you can make) across the water to some hucksters down the coast who haven't figured out grapes make wine. You got sheep, they got sheep, you got sand, rocks, high baby mortality, they got sand, rocks etc.

The need for a place to transport your wine came after you had a way of keeping your wine in the first place. Once again commerce comes into supply the reasons for science. Without a way to transport your wine or other goods (including religon in the form of icons) there is no reason to build the boats to carry the wine, hence no need for harbors, ocean crafts, maps (of far away places, at one time and not that long ago, the idea of 'maps' was alien. We think in left is west now, but it's not, it's over there that way where the sun is going down. Maps developed as a way of telling sailors where to watch for hidden shoals, rocks, and the like) (it's like your neighborhood you know ever street, tree and alley in it, you got no need of a map, cuz the directions 'over there by the Miller House by the oak tree' works.)

Pottery as a fundemental 'need' for civilization (defined as staying put in one place) also comes into play by a need to find a way to keep the vermin out of the food stores (hence letting you stay in one place) nomad camps don't attract rats, mice roaches in the numbers of villages where generations of critters would grow on the kind of storage before pottery. (think chewed through wine skins with a bunch of really pleasantly buzzed mice) and once a people put down roots they need a way of getting the stuff they can't get anymore when they wandered for a living.

[ancient]

you cant stop bugs from getting into villages with pottery, and i would hardly call that and elemental need of civilization...

[Grallon]

Can someone tell me how to change the pace of the game ? I want 20 y turns max and decreasing. Is this hardcoded now ? It was editable in Civ 2


G.

[Plutarck]

Grallon: It would seem that it's yet another thing that has been hard-coded into the game. The makers of Civ3 must not have had the modmaking community in mind when building the game.


MicMc: Makes enough sense to me, and if nothing else it doesn't hurt having it be a prereq. Now that I'm changing the Galley it's ok that it comes when it does.


Here are some more changes I've got planned so far. Got plenty of work to do so it might be another day or two for the next version:


11/14/01:

-The Infantry and Mech Inf can no longer build Fortifications, Clear Forests or Jungles. The AI just doesn't understand fortifications whatsoever, and clearign Forests would just allow exploitation of logging. Only units which reduce population by at least one will be allowed to clear forests. I removed jungles from an ability so now if you want a non-population decreasing unit to clear jungles you'll need to use the Swordsman.

-BUG FIX: The Cannon had 0 rate of fire, but the Catapult didn't. How did that happen? Regardless, it's been fixed.

-Ironclad now is back to it's original stats of 4/4/4, and now sinks in the ocean. I'm tempted to make it sink at sea, but for balance reasons I'll leave it this way. The superiority of Ironclads is grossly inflated according to my research, and they never became common and the one's that were built were used more for coastal and intlet defense and for blockading. An Ocean Worthy vessel between Ironclad and Destroyer is the next unit I'm adding.

-The Man-O-War and Frigate can no longer Upgrade to the Ironclad, due to the ironclad loosing it's ocean-worthyness. It was also stretching real-world accuracy. Now if you want an Ironclad you're just going to have to build it from scratch.

-ISSUE: The Babylonian Bowman is probably now the least powerful special unit, but it's a very hard unit to make better without unbalancing other units. I believe the only possible choices are increasing it's attack to 3, or giving it Zone of Control. The latter seems like it's stretching it, but what of giving it 3 attack? Here is the units that would compare:

Swordsman: 3 cost, 3/2/1, iron needed
Leggionairy: 3 cost, 3/3/1, iron needed
Immortal: 3 cost, 4/2/1, iron needed

Would a 2 cost 3/2/1 unit without iron available after 1 tech of research be unbalancing? I just can't see any other way, but I'm open to suggestions. Otherwise the Babylonians will forever have a not-very-useful special unit. But more movement or less cost seems out of the question. Too bad you can't give a unit 1.5 cost...

[Plutarck]

It may be a few days before I'm finished with the next version, but I hope to have it done in time for people to play it over the weekend (for people who don't go out and do other things on the weekends, of course. personally I work on the weekend and usually don't do much of anything but sleep and work)


However, I'm posting this to let everyone know that this next one will be BIG. BIG my friends. Here's a teaser of what is to come:

-Comes with an auto-installer so you don't even have to navigate you're computer's directorys.

-Adds more than 8+ units including the Mercenary unit (think "Privateer on land"), an ancient age warship, a middle-industrial age warship, 3 modern age ships which replace their industrial age ancestors, 2 totally new modern submarines, 1 totally new modern ship, and a new unit called the "Atomic Bomb"! (in the late industrial age, where it should be!) And maybe even more...

-Totally smoothes out, balances, improves, and greatly increases the importance of naval units throughout the entire game. Being able to ignore water units would be a very unwise move.

-At least 1 new non-government technology.

-At least 2 new governments which are not present in ANY other mod (one in the late middle ages, the other in the late industrial ages), along with 2 new technologys to go along with it.

-At least 1 new wonder (in the ancient age).

-At least 2 new city improvements.

-Changes land-based bombardment units to be more useful at certain points in the game.

-1 new ground unit in the ancient age which introduces a totally new concept for new units to the game.

-2 new resources. One is a bonus resource, and the other a special very rare strategic resource.


And that's just the stuff I have thought up today!

Yes my friends, the LWC mod will be the ultimate Civ3 mod.



Note: "Good lord willin' and the creak don't rise" I will update this mod when the patch comes out should it be neccessary, and do it as soon as possible after it so you can take full advantage of anything Firaxis may fix/change.