MOD: Long Winded Changes Mod: Improvements increasing Balance, Accuracy, and Fun

[axxessdenied]

Wow... mind posting the bic file?

[Plutarck]

It's done! It's done!

The LWC Mod v0.7 if FINALLY AVAILABLE FOR DOWNLOAD! Woohoo!

Many praises to Kolyana as listed in the first post in this thread


Gotta do some other stuff but I'll respond to other post later. Just wanted to get this out there ASAP!


Rooster: BTW, looks like an excellant post. I'll read ever bit and respond when I get a chance

[Kolyana]

Two cheers for Plut.

Erm. Maybe that's meant to be three.

Anyway, praise over here for being the wind beneath his winds.

Maybe the bint in the back trying to capture an autograph.

[Plutarck]

Ideas for v0.8

And 2.14159 cheers for Kolyana!

Thanks for the compliment (inside joke...even she might not get it, hehe)

Rooster: Gonna have to read your post more tommarrow, but I really like your ideas. I wanted to give alot more thought to the government system and I just didn't have the time or inclination to do it.

I think your ideas may be the system I adopt, so we'll see


About time to rest for the day, but here is what I've come up with so far for version 0.8.

We'll see how it goes, hehe. I've also played alot with the Modern Age tech tree and changed the Spaceship Victory so it should be more difficult, require more research, and take longer to complete.


Here's what I have. It's a whole mess of changes, and I think it's another major step forward for the game:

11/27/01:

-Space Ship Victory: The SS Victory seems to be too easy and end too quickly. I believe I have rectified this with the following changes. I had a much better and longer explanation but my freakin' computer crashed before I saved...grrrr. They should be mostly self-explanatory.

-All SS pieces: Cost 4 more to build.

-SS Cockpit: Buildable with Robotics, not Space Flight. Everyone should be in stasis, and even with "common" space shuttle missions everything is almost totally controlled by computers. If you're going to Alpha Centauri you aren't going to be driving the thing with a stick or using a calculator to figure out which way you should go. Thus, Robotics is required.

-SS Stasis Chamber: Buildable with Genetics, not Synthetic Materials. Genetics is a kind of "Advanced Medical Research" tech, and putting someone in stasis requires such understanding.

-SS Storage/Supply: Buildable with Superconductor, not Synthetic Materials. Part of what is stored is Project ARK, a collection of more than 150 samples of lifeforms to be used in terraforming a planet and bringing it to early norms. These "samples" are most likely embryos and genetic information, which probably require both Synthetic Materials and Genetics to properly manipulate and store, thus SS Storage/Supply should probably require both techs to actually build it, so while it doesn't require a Superconductor to build the thing I think it's the best place to put it.

-Modern Tech Tree: I am changing the modern tech tree to further balance the Space Ship victory, improve real-world accuracy, and make it more enjoyable too. I'm also moving around some Modern units for similar reasons and to reflect the change in the tech tree.

-Superconductor: Formerly requiring Space Flight and Fission to research, it now requires Synthetic Materials and Miniaturization. SM is needed to conduct the testing and manufacture of superconductors and Miniaturization is required for the powerful computers and advanced electronics which are needed to even want to look for a superconductor, much less actually develop one.

Space Flight and Fission simply make no real-world sense as requirements, and in game-play the modern tech tree is very screwy. The Recycling path is totally unconnected to any other technologys...suffice it to say that it's just a big mess. This change improves real world accuracy and many elements of gameplay.

-Synthetic Materials: Now requires Computers to research in addition to Recycling.

-Nuclear Power: Now requires Computers in addition to Fission.

-Advanced Naval Warfare: Now requires Rocketry and Nuclear Power.

-The Laser: Now requires Miniaturization instead of Computers to research, in addition to it's Nuclear Power requirement.

-Robotics: Now requires only The Laser to research. Because The Laser now requires Miniaturization, Robotics no longer needs it as a requirement.

-Nuclear Submarine: Becomes available with Nuclear Power, not Fission.

-Modern Destroyer: Becomes available with Nuclear Power, not Fission.

-Modern Transport: Becomes available with Computers, not Miniaturization.

-Coracle: Now has 0 attack. I didn't think of it till Smazza brought up that it might be too good and annoys other civs when it's there (he had the idea for a raft unit, but I prefer the Coracle). I forgot that I could give it 0 attack, and it makes sense anyhow. The only way to attack in a Coracle is to get out and swim over to the other boat, so it makes sense to me. This also means Barbarian Galleys can attack you and you can't attack back, hehe. That's what you get for puddlin around on a twig.

-Resource Discovery: Due to the arguments from Flynn I have decided to give the idea of making resources visible earlier a chance. Due to some of his reccommended placements I feel better that it will work, and I also thought of something.

The placement of resources is now more based upon when people began to think a resource could be useful somehow, but hadn't quite decided what to do with the stuff. For instance with iron it had already been discovered and experimented with Bronze Working, but bronze was the prefered use. It wasn't until techniques improved and more smiths starting playing around with iron that it started being used to create anything, so now you can see the resource Iron with the advent of Bronze Working.

I have also changed Wine and Incense, which are luxury resources, to not being visible immediatly. But they are soon discovered...more on that below.

-Iron: Visible with Bronze Working instead of Iron Working.

-Saltpeter: Visible with Invention instead of Gunpowder. This is a hard one...anyone have a better idea for it?

-Coal: Visible with Metallurgy instead of Steam Power. This is mostly to make Metallurgy more important to research, but coal is really a charcoal like substance which surely must have been experimented with in the process of metallurgy, even if they never did find the stuff very important.

-Oil: Available with Industrialization instead of Refining. Just reading the Description in the civilopedia makes this one make sense. Crude oil had it's uses and was experimented with as a fuel during Steam Power and Industrialization, but coal was clearly the prefered fuel of choice. After refining this began to change of course, and it makes best all-around sense to give it with Industrialization.

-Rubber: Available with Electricity instead of Replacable Parts. Rubber was useful for a very long time, but it makes a really great insulator for electrical cords and wires. Makes sense to me!

-Aluminum: Available with Mass Production instead of Rocketry. I'm trying to make it coincide with when the most effective method for producing aluminum was discovered in the late 1800s, and Mass Production seems to fit in with other uses of it also. The world supply of tin didn't cause aluminum to be heavily developed until quite a while later, so it shouldn't be needed for units earlier. This method of making aluminum requires electricity, but that would be too early for it to be found MP seems like the perfect place to me.

Any better ideas?

-Uranium: Available with Atomic Theory instead of Fission. Discovered in the late 1700s, uranium is one of the most valuable metals in the world...at least now adays. Seems a perfect fit with Atomic Theory when people started spending a lot of time playing with glowing rocks and trying to figure out what they could use them for.

On a sepperate note, isn't uranium used for the manufacture of advanced conventional weapons? Hm...

-Wines: Now available with Pottery. It makes sense even though animal skins were the main container for wines, beer in fact was stored in pots in ancient egypt. I still want improvements to produce resources so I could make a Brewery which turned Barley (strategic resource would be best) into the luxury resource of Beer. So many possibilitys...maybe in Civilization 4? Riiiight...sure, let's just keep telling ourselves that.

-Incense: Now available with Mysticism. Probable the best fit with Ceremonail Burial, this still makes sense in that the primary use of incense is religious/spiritual based and I wanted to have another reason to research Mysticism.

-The Oracle: Now availabie with Polytheism instead of Mysticism.

The main reason is to make it available a little later and help give more value to Polytheism. I think an Elephant Rider kind of unit should really go in Polytheism too and perhaps change Ivory to being Elephants. I'm not sure if you can just leave it as a luxury resource or not...would be nice though, and I could set the appearance ratio of it too. It's an idea, but we'll leave it till a later date for more consideration.

Anyhow, the real-world reason for this is that The Oracle became used because of the more widespread polytheistic belief systems of Rome/Greece. Polytheism really was just an advancement on the original "mysticism" (note: common day defiinition of "mystic" and "mysticism" is most often totally different than this historical definition. The currently used definition is: Mysticism, noun - 1. Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God. The experience of such communion as described by mystics. 2. A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience.), and thus The Oracle best fits into Polytheism.

[neoxese]

Rubber is "plantable". In fact all the rubber we are using come from rubber forest planted by humans.

"silicon" as a limited resource would have made so much more sense.

[Badtz Maru]

Originally posted by neoxese
Rubber is "plantable". In fact all the rubber we are using come from rubber forest planted by humans.

"silicon" as a limited resource would have made so much more sense.

Silicon is one of the most common elements on Earth. Making it a strategic resource would make about as much sense as making saltpeter one...hey, wait a minute... 8^)

[Claymore]

Partisan Folder missing in .6 version

Trying to use the partisan will of course crash CIV in the .6 version. The folder is missing. Hopefully it was added to .7 version,though it was not specifically mentioned in the .7 highlights.

[axxessdenied]

I have a request for the install program... can you change it so that it doesn't create a new directory Civilization 3? I have Civ3 installed in a folder called Civ3, and it just makes it a pain copying all the files over =\

[Plutarck]

Unfortunately the jerko installer makes it a bit difficult as I can't make Civilization III the default folder, so if I changed it so you could pick the folder then people with the default installation couldn't just click "OK", but would have to change it and point it to where they actually have it installed.


However if enough people are OK with having to manually choose the installation then I'd be more than happy to change it. Might do it anyway...didn't realise many people at all changed what directory it installs into

[BoredGamer]

Nuclear power plants

The reason why a nuclear reactor should be near water is that water is the most commonly used coolant in reactors. Although there are alternatives, some Soviet submarines use a liquid metal coolant (lead bismuth).

Although of course the water can be piped to the plant, there are quite a few reactors in a desert in idaho.



This is a very basic picture of a nuclear power plant, notice that there are 2 seperate systems using water (both of them are colored blue), There is also a 3rd system that is not shown. The first system is the primary coolant, which is a closed system (meaning no water is added or removed from the system except under special circumstances). And this water actually circulates THROUGH the reactor core, and keeps it cool (Very important).
The second system removes the heat from the water in the first system, and uses it to make steam. this is what powers the turbine, which is where the electricity is generated. This is also a closed system (usually). A third system is run throught the turbines to cool the second system. This is usually an OPEN system, meaning water is piped in, and when it is heated it is then vented off. The big towers you see in pictures of nuclear power plants are cooling towers, the "smoke" you see coming out of the top of them is actually steam, from the third cooling system.





As a side note, nuclear power really should NOT require computers, the computer use in most power plants was very minimal for a very long time, and mostly solid state. The plant does not require a computer to operate, they are mostly used for saftey equipment, monitoring, and automation. These things were just done manually in the period of time before computers were readily available. Consider the fact that we basicly had the ability to build a power plant in 1945, the first operational plant (to the best of my knowledge) was built in 1953. The first nuclear powered sub (USS Nautilus) Was built in 1955. This was BEFORE computers small enough to be placed on a sub were widely available.

On yet another side note (yes, I'm long winded too). Nuclear Battleships? To the best of my knowledge they have not only never existed, but probably never will. The closest to this would be a couple of Battle Cruisers built by the Russians in the cold war era, (The Kirov Class). But the truth is that the Aircraft Carrier has replaced the primary role that battleships used to have as centerpiece of an attack group. Battleships are still usefull for shore bombardments, but not so much for ship to ship fighting (except using thier retro-fitted missles). When was the last battleship built by any country? World War II. The vast majority of nuclear powered naval vessels are submarines, there are also several aircraft carriers, and the US navy has quite a few nuclear "cruisers" (they are more realisticly destroyers, except that they are primarily anti-aircraft platforms, with the exception of the USS Longbeach).

[Kolyana]

puddlin around on a twig.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA.

Erm.

Yes. Anway.

Did something get done with privateers? Have you got any control over colonies?

[Daveraver]

Pluty, I'm midway through a game on your mod and NO bugs yet (knock knock) but lemme just say this:

Effin brilliant.

Wonderful mod.

May I bear your children?

Well maybe scratch the last one, but I think your changes are both fair and modest.

-Davebetatesternumberthreezerofiveraver

[Plutarck]

monkspider: Thanks alot for the compliment! Sorry for the delay in responding, but it kinda got lost on the last page and forgot to respond

And good work on your mod. Good luck to you on it, I'm sure all of you working on it will make it excellant


BoredGamer: This is one of the purks of doing this. I love this stuff

Computers removed from nuclear power and computers added for Advanced Naval Warfare now. Thanks alot for the info


Kolyana:

As for Colonys, now that you mention it...there is absolute no entry for anything regarding colonys. None whatsoever...grr.

Highly annoying. So many things could be done...you know, like making them not suck.

As for the Privateer, all kinds of changes. I'm not sure that there is even 1 single naval unit in the game that hasn't undergone a major change.

In order of cost, attack, defense, movement, bombard strength, range, and rate of fire - done in order of appearance:

Galley: 3, 1/1/3, 0/0/0 (upgrades to Caravel)
Warship: 4, 2/2/3, 2/1/1 (upgrades to Frigate)
Caravel: 4, 1/2/4, 0/0/0 (upgrades to Galleon)
Frigate: 6, 3/3/4, 4/1/2
Privateer: 7, 2/2/4, 2/1/1 (upgrades to Corporate Privateer)
Ironclad: 8, 5/4/3, 6/1/2 (sinks in Ocean)
Corporate Privateer: 7, 3/3/4, 4/1/1
Steel Warship: 10, 7/6/7, 7/1/2
Submarine: 12, 7/6/3, 0/0/0
Destroyer: 12, 10/7/5, 8/1/2 (sees Submarines, upgrades to Modern Destroyer)

And there's still 10 naval units I haven't mentioned (and I skipped Galleon in there)


Daveraver: Excellant, excellant, excellant, and I'd just prefer you carry them around in one of those sachel things. Children are heavy.

Then again I'd actually have to obtain some children...but hey, I hear they're parks full of 'em! Which is where I want 'em to stay!

Oh yeah, and "excellant" (almost forgot).

Thanks alot

[Claymore]

One small oversight in .7 version. The worker illustration...when you are in the city mode...instead of seeing the workers illustratration you see the number 90. So for the next version.....
Thanks Plutarch for all your hard work...I am having a great time with your MOD. One more thought...is there a way...maybe with a better editor in the future to have a privateer entity.ie...have a privateer settler and in essence create another player in the game...controlled of course by one of the human players...some very interesting puppet government possibilitys :-)
Another idea...natural resouce "work arounds". Allow countrys to develope a synthetic alternative to a needed resource...but at a very stiff research price.

[Kestrel]

One of the current problems with Civ III (it seems to me) is the inability to easily cut and paste from various mods to build up a composite modpack (like you could a little more easily with Civ II primarily by cutting and pasting the Rules.txt).

There fore - Is there any chance of including the Tin Resource idea (as a prereq. for Bronze units) as suggested by Harlan in another thread, or the Copper Resource ( as a prereq for Bronze units and many of the more modern units such as Infantry (Cased Ammunition) and machinery (electrical wiring)) as per The English Cossack's "Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod" into your Mod ?

These might better simulate the early resource struggles that beset Civs in the Pre Iron age.