CIV: Spain!

[Iron Chancellor]

Hmmm kinda funny when you consider the only reason Spain survived the 20th century by staying neutral through both world wars, sinking unfortunately to a third-rate power under a nationalist/fascist dictator. No offense to the Spanish culture, but I can name many more Greek inventors and scientists than I can Spanish. The greatest cultural action of the Spanish (excluding Pacasso and the Grenadan/Muslim scientists) seems to have been the Inquisition.


Incidently, how many former Spanish colonies have acheived free, open democracies and are major economic powers?

[Iron Chancellor]

*Picasso

[Mr. Llera]

Hmmm kinda funny when you consider the only reason Spain survived the 20th century by staying neutral through both world wars

It may be a surprise to Americans, but there is more to history than the 20th Century. There is not a civilization out there that has been able to stay powerful from the time of the ancient Romans to this very day. Not a single one, without some downfall or bad times, its just the way things are, and one day American power will fall too, I mean, it wasn't until the end of the first World War that the US could even be argued was a Great Power. And Spain came off pretty well for a "third rate power". I mean, since the elimination of the Moors outside Granada some 700 years ago, (Stubborn Granada would take another 200 to subdue), Spain has stayed a united country, never taken over by another European power. Unlike the Italians who during its downfall was sliced by several European powers, the Greeks, who were taken over by the Ottomans, wasn' t until the mid-1800s until they regained their independance, Germany wouldn't become a united nation until the 1880s, as would Italy. In Germany's case that was the first time in their history they become a united nation, would lose 2 world wars, would lose entirely their world empire that they briefly controlled, would become divided by the end of the 2nd , and its only been for just over 10 years now that Germany has once again unified their country. And its not even the same Germany that was around in 1914, they lost much of it to Poland and a little to France. Talking about discoveries, how many Russian inventions are out there? Russia was a backward civilization for almost all its history! Some would argue it still is! Only until the end of the 2nd world war did they briefly become a world power.

As for the staying neutral in both world wars was the only reason for their survival, well in WW1 thats not true. If Spain had sided with the Allies they would have survived quite nicely and might have even got a piece of another country, however this is unlikely and probably the reason that Spain stayed neutral. In WW2, Spain was in a lose-lose situation. If they sided with the Allies, they get destroyed by Germany from 1939-1942, if they side with the Axis they get destroyed by the Allies from 1943-1945. Why knock a Civilization for being smart? Look at all the other civs. who entered an ill-advised war and payed dearly for it! Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ottomans, and Imperial and Nazi Germany comes to mind.

Currently, Spain has the fastest growing economy in Europe and only France, Russia, and perhaps Germany have a bigger army. Only France and perhaps England have a more powerful navy. Not bad for a former "third rate power", wouldn't you say? And by the by, how's Greece doing, you know, since they were conquered by the Romans some what, 3000 years ago? Have they rebounded, AT ALL, since then?

Incidently, how many former Spanish colonies have acheived free, open democracies and are major economic powers?

That was the dumbest statement I've heard in a while. Right now, every single country in Latin America aside from Cuba has a Democracy. And what does becoming Democratic have to do with being a great civilization? Most of the great leaders in the Civ 3 game were not democratically elected. And for that matter, the golden periods of almost every civ in the game came at a time when they were not a Democracy. And why is it Spain's fault what happens to countries that have been independant for hundreds of years? Talking about major economic powers, what about the poorest country in the Americas? Know which one that is? Haiti. Who colonized Haiti? The French. Should France be blamed for that?

Furthermore, it is truly absurd to blame Spain for the dictatorships of Latin America when it was the United States, not Spain, that countinually and arguably to this very day, have overthrown legitimate Democratic government and replaced those with Fascist-style dictatorships. Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Panama, Columbia, Venezuela many others, some more than once, all historical record. Many other ruthless dictatorships were wholeheartedly supported by the American gov. many of those were heavily involved in the drug cartel and guilty of killing thousands of their own people, in the case of El Salvador, even killed and raped American nuns, covered it up, and the US gov. under Reagan did nothing. Well no, they did do something, they openly supported that very gov. , gave that gov. tons of weapons and money and even demanded to Congress that they be allowed to give more. And this is in the 1980s, not the 1500s when Spain was in its golden period.
Finally, how many American backed dictatorships have become "great economic powers"?

[Estilpón]

Originally posted by Iron Chancellor
The greatest cultural action of the Spanish (excluding Pacasso and the Grenadan/Muslim scientists) seems to have been the Inquisition.

you unknowed spanish cultural achievements

picture (not only Picasso ), literature, architecture...

Incidently, how many former Spanish colonies have acheived free, open democracies and are major economic powers?

Incidently, how many former English colonies have acheived free, open democracies and are major economic powers?

The more influential explanatory variables in the equation that determines the political, economic and social evolution of the colonies are not which was the metropolis (there is a cultural problem here...). You must see 2 factors: previous level of development and degree of received emigration.

You can observes the countries of Africa: English and French colonies, mainly...

[Estilpón]

Mr.Llera

[jasev]

Originally posted by Iron Chancellor
The greatest cultural action of the Spanish (excluding Pacasso and the Grenadan/Muslim scientists) seems to have been the Inquisition.

Great. Fantastic. Wonderful. And you dare to say "no offense to Spanish culture"?

It's obvious that you don't know anything about spanish culture, so you can't offend us; we only can lagh at your ignorance

When somebody is speaking about a topic I ignore I don't say anything, I listen to people who really knows and try to learn something. I suggest you to adopt this policy.

[zulu9812]

If people want, I'll post a Franco leaderhead (made by ccm01) - let me know.

Just a thought - if Tercios are available with Invention, and upgrade to Knight, they're not going to be around for very long are they?

[Estilpón]

Originally posted by zulu9812
If people want, I'll post a Franco leaderhead (made by ccm01) - let me know.

Just a thought - if Tercios are available with Invention, and upgrade to Knight, they're not going to be around for very long are they?

¿Franco?

Franco: a dictator, a bad militar, the leader of the worst Spanish political time!!!

Felipe II: the creator of the first real world empire, he's also a dictator, but this is usually in his time...

[Waku]

Originally posted by zulu9812
If people want, I'll post a Franco leaderhead (made by ccm01) - let me know.

FYG, it is still very common in Spain the use of euphemisms to refer to him, we prefer to not to hear his name mentioned.

[zulu9812]

fair nuff - i just thought ppl might want it for a scenario...

[dunk]

Originally posted by Mr. Llera
I strongly second that remark, it was a truly moronic decision on the part of Firaxis not to include the Spanish in Civ 3. I It is just inexcusable to have civilizations like the Aztecs, Iroquois, japanese, greeks, and yes, i'll say it even the Americans, but not the Spanish. Before the patriotic USA guys go berserk, let me just say why the Americans because, first off, while i never heard anyone say this, Americans are truly a fishy "civilization" i mean, it was only 100-150 years ago when the United States could even be considered a world power and Americans are really just a mish mosh of other peoples and cultures, even the "native " americans probably came from asia.

I think the Spanish should be in civ, along with every other nation that has ever existed.

Don't call my country fishy. We may be mish mosh, but that's what any civilization is. We are not simply an offshoot of England. Over time, the US has become the most diverse culture on the planet.

The native Americans DID come from Asia. As every other modern human originated in Africa. Stupid reasoning.

Spain will be in the expansion, Play the World.

[Mr. Llera]

Incidently, how many former Spanish colonies have acheived free, open democracies and are major economic powers?

One more comment about that, Spain left Mexico with an area covering much of Western America including California, Texas, and the South-Western states. If Mexico had been able to hold on to this territory, they would have been the most powerful civilization in the Americas and certainly "a great economic power". Mexico, of course, lost this territory when they were INDEPENDANT, under a stupid MEXICAN leader, serving a MEXICAN government, certainly no fault of Spain, who had left it with a great Empire.

I think the Spanish should be in civ, along with every other nation that has ever existed.

Great, wonderful, how thoughful, BUT not every civ can be in the game. Its obvious Firaxis will not do that, perhaps cannot do that, so we must deal with what we have.

Don't call my country fishy.

Well, thats a little misleading, when I said that, I meant that it was fishy as a civilization that was put into the game before several other more worthy civs were kept out. Compare it to other civs. that were left out of the game that have been around for thousands of years. America has only been known to the civilized world for just over 500 years, not of any importance until the past 150 or so, didn't become a world power until the last 100, I don't know what you call that but compare it to Civilizations like the Spanish , the Arabs, etc. Ancient Civs. that have thousands of years of influence, and several hundred years as the most powerful civilization in the world, what do you call it? Is "questionable" a better term?

By the way, since its apparently "your country", I guess its "my country" too, and according to what I believe is known as the Constitution, I can call "my country" , "your country" or any country whatever I want. But I didn't call anybody's country "fishy", just that it was a "fishy" decision to let Americans, as well as other civilizations, in the game , before what I argued are more credible and worthy civilizations.

We are not simply an offshoot of England.

Agreed. Never said that.

The native Americans DID come from Asia. As every other modern human originated in Africa. Stupid reasoning.

Good Point. Not afraid to mention when somebody makes a good point. I only mentioned that to remind people that MOST of the American cultures are already represented in the game (English, German, French, Roman, etc.) Thats no insult to Americans, its just a further point I believe of why Americans should have been left out for a more influential civilization.

In fact, one of the mistakes Spain made was throwing out the Jews and Moors or forcing them to convert. If Spain had been more tolerant, they may have been a greater civilization. The fact that Americans have been able to be powerful and great country despite many different cultures is admirable, BUT.. does not erase history and the history of other civilizations.

Spain will be in the expansion, Play the World.

Yes, most of us know that I think. But that doesn't excuse why Spain was not in the first game despite "questionable" decisions made by Firaxis to allow other civilizations in the game instead. I forgot to mention the Zulus by the way, they are another "questionable" civ. Probably done to be politically correct more than history. But getting back to point, why should I pay 35 or 40 dollars to have a Civilization that I believe, obviously more worthy than AT LEAST 2 other civilizations, (Aztecs, Zulus) if not more. (Greeks, Japanese, etc.) I'll probably end up paying it like most players, but I ain't happy about it.

[dunk]

Great, wonderful, how thoughful, BUT not every civ can be in the game. Its obvious Firaxis will not do that, perhaps cannot do that, so we must deal with what we have."

If the editor allows us to have more than 31 civs in the list, then, yes, we can.

I agree that there are many civs that deserve to be in the game. Who's more worthy? The Americans or the Arabs? Does it really matter? If you think the Arabs belong in the game in place of the Americans, replace the Americans with Arabs. Make the civ yourself. The editor allows that.

I'm not buying the expansion pack because Spain and the Mongols are in it. I will buy it for the added features, hopefully improved gameplay, and MP. To me that's worth the price of admission.

BTW, the title of this thread makes me laugh. Spain! The exclamation point makes me chuckle. It makes me think that someone will shout Spain! every time they play the game. I'm crazy.

[Jay Bee]

The title of this thread makes a lot of sense to all those who were around when Firaxis finally made it clear that Spain wasn't one of the magnificent 16. A long story, don't ask

Señor Llera, I'm sure you'd be very welcome here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=123

[Pevonian]

Hmm

How many English colonies are great economic (or was it world?) powers? USA, Canada, Austrailia. How many are Democratic now? Many, but a few aren't as cna be expected, most obvious example Pakistan (I think...) and now is it Zimbabwe with Mugabi?

On the issue of Spain, England's historical enemies and allies, it is annoying they weren't in the original, but no worries, in PTW they are there!

Also on civs I was once thinking that perhaps as the ages progress the civilisation change too. e.g. Rome, becomes Italy, England becomes United Kingdom, Germania becomes 1st, 2nd and 3rd Reich then Germany perhaps. And Aztecs could be Incas, Aztecs, Mexicans. Just an idea really.

:0