Governments

[joncnunn]

Well, another possibility for the reducing corruption wonder for Democracy would be the "Elliott Ness" wonder.

[theDragon]

Interesting... However, does anyone have the actual STATS for any of those governments? They would be greatly appreicated. I am completely open to other Governments and other changes to my current list. As I said before, I know for a fact that the current chasis is not perfect, and I would like it to be amended with all of your help. Adding governments and/or changing the chasis I posted before will be great.

The goals I want accomplished from the government changes are:
1) Making Modern governments more appealing and thus making Ancient governments obsolete at some point.

2) Make the Ancient governments equal to each other and make the choice of Ancient gov's to be based more concretely upon situational basis instead of a beeline to (Ex. Republic).

3) Make the Modern governments equal to one another also, as well as make the Modern governments even out within itself. (Ex. Communism)

I am open to any options as far as changing current government stats and new governments being added to the GovChasis.

I ask that we could get some approximate STATS on them however.
THANKS ALOT EVERYONE!

[theDragon]

One more thing has been presented to me after reading more of AU's Balancing the Governments thread:

Fascism - Take out Forced Resettlement?
Personally, I would not shed tears over this. Xenophobia is enough to make Fascism unique to me, however I would once again love to hear everyone's opinion on the matter.

[Mace]

Actual stats? Well that kind of depends on many other factors, like how the rest of the mod is set up, particularly as it concerns unit cost stats.

As I said though, I think a communal corruption govt with the representative govt trade bonus would be interesting...and that would be:

Social Democracy: 0/0/0 support; unit cost 3 or 4 or 5 (depends) per turn; high WW; communal corruption; no draft; no mp; veteran diplomats (as if that really means anything, heheh); Universal Healthcare wonder (+ happiness?); Corporate Subsidy wonder (?); and maybe one more happiness wonder. Social D would be the ideal govt for happiness-mongers. This is to be compared to, more or less, the govt of many European countries in the real world.

Federal Democracy 0/0/0 support; unit cost 2 or 3 or 4 (depends); high WW; minimal? corruption; draft 1; no mp; Elliot Ness wonder (- like SPHQ), hehe. No, call it "The Constitution" wonder. Supreme Court-type wonder (effect not sure yet). Federal D would be like the govt of the USA, Turkey, Japan, etc.

Constitutional Monarchy 0/0/0 support; unit cost 2 or 3 or 4 (depends); high WW; minimal? corruption; draft 1; no mp; Magna Carta wonder (like SPHQ). And probably one more wonder, maybe one to reduce WW, since const mon's tend to be able to maintain long wars in history. Got to keep these 3 govts more or less equal! Const Mon would obviously be the govt of the UK, maybe Morocco, etc. but I would say countries like the Netherlands (which has a monarchy) are closer to Social D. It's a toss up if you try to transfer real-world govts to any of these categories. Even the U.S.A. has Social D elements in it.

Of course all of these are present in some of the big mods out there, in similar forms. But I agree with you, all of them should be more or less equal--picking which one to play depends on what style the player wants to go with.

I still debate the validity of a modern govt "Fascism". But it is fun and neat. And isn't Communism, technically speaking, an economic system, rather than a form of government? Maybe that could be totalitarianism or something...

[theDragon]

The only problem I would have with those three governments is the fact they are almost carbon copies of one another.. except of course the wonders.. but I feel that different governments should have different stats all around or at least in more areas than just wonders.
At least thats my personal opinion. :-)

[Elda king]

I think that the liberal governments, like republic and democracy, should have bigger corruption. Why there is so much corruption in Despotism? You is the unique ruler, who will steal your money?

[theDragon]

I sorta think that kind of stuff too. I mean, I think that Communism and Democracy should have just the same corruption, I have no more faith in the greedy totalitarian dictators than I do in the greedy capitalist politicians. So I dont know whats the deal with corruption...

However the way I justify the corruption idea is to offset the unit support and military powers of non-rep govs.

[Mace]

Originally posted by theDragon
The only problem I would have with those three governments is the fact they are almost carbon copies of one another.. except of course the wonders.. but I feel that different governments should have different stats all around or at least in more areas than just wonders.

Social D has communal corr. and that's quite different from the other two. And the wonders could make a big difference in how each of those govts functions. It's all conjecture of course, makes for interesting discussion.

Well, they are similar because they are all derived from stock C3C Democracy. That's what we were doing in the first place. And they are all representative governments, so they'll all have to have the trade bonus, (I think all rep govts should have the trade bonus) and they'll all have to have a lot of WW. So it doesn't leave much room for differences, unless you were to really radically change things.

You can't give much unit support to these modern govts with the trade bonus or else you'll end up with a super-powerful govt that can support massive amounts of troops and have high gold income at the same time. I feel that it's best to have one govt for one particular play style. Social D should probably be for a peaceful builder endgame, and a communal version of democracy, but with major unit cost drawbacks.

If you radically change things, then I think it's harder to get a handle on balance. Making Demo communal...hmm..interesting thought.

[joncnunn]

Mostly, your own military commanders.

Originally posted by Elda king
Why there is so much corruption in Despotism? You is the unique ruler, who will steal your money?

[theDragon]

Well in my model/chasis for the governments I would actually make Democratic Socialism the communal corruption government due to it's RW status as being such. My model would make Social Democracy a minimal corruption government.

I am still however playing with the ideas of the Constitutional Monarchy and the Federal Republic/Democracy however, but am still trying to buff out these two radical changes to my previous proposal:

1) Yes Democratic Socialism will have a communal government, however what should the two government's have as unit free supports?

I like the idea I got either from this or the other thread where Social Democracy would have higher military capabilites and Democratic Socialism would instead have free maintenance. The model would then look like this:

NAME------------------------Support T/C/M-----WW----
DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM: --- 0/2/2--- HIGH WW --- NO MAINTENANCE
SOCIAL DEMOCRACY: --- 0/4/4--- HIGH WW ---

2) The next problem I have is the fact of what to have as costs for each additional military unit be? 2 is stock Demo right? Should they both be hiked to 3? Or should only Democratic Socialism because it is not meant to be supporting a standing army? One justification for Social Democracy having a lower cost was that companies are always looking to sell to the government for a war.

I dont know and would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the two subjects above. Thanks!

[theDragon]

ANY THOUGHTS?

[Mace]

Originally posted by theDragon
1) Yes Democratic Socialism will have a communal government, however what should the two government's have as unit free supports?

Have you done any testing with either of those govts?

I have been doing some testing with a govt with communal corruption, trade bonus, high WW, and zero building maintenance, and 0/0/0 unit support, 5 gpt/turn unit cost.

After limited testing, I am beginning to think that communal corruption, trade bonus, and zero building maintenance is too strong. I had ungodly gold flow per turn that way. I need to test more at higher diff lvls...

So I may experiment with lowering unit support to negative values.

It was just too much. Grant you, I had a sweet starting location, rivers, lux, lots of land, the whole 9 yards.

[theDragon]

Is taking away the Trade Bonus an option?

[Mace]

Originally posted by theDragon
Is taking away the Trade Bonus an option?

Well it is an option. I guess. I mean, if you did that you would have basically "Communism" govt, which has no trade bonus and communal corruption.

The game I played had too much gold flow coming in, and I am still trying to figure out ways to make a Social D govt have the trade bonus and communal corr. without making it give too much cash.

But why not add in building maintenance? I guess the idea behind a Civ3 Social Democracy govt was that the state supported economy would account for some of this. I think it's a good idea; there just has to be a way of simulating the high cash drain that Social Democracies have to support massive social programs and state-sponsored industries. Maybe high military cost is the way? I don't know yet, I'm still experimenting...

[theDragon]

Well.... an idea that I have been throwing around is to make each additional unit cost some outrageous amount... say 20-50 gpt? Support cost being that high will deter the player from having a standing army but still give the government its economic strength.

(Oh, and I was thinking about keeping it 0-1-1 or something to that effect so that the defensive units could still be there with little/no cost)... I dont know... This whole government deal is a hard nut to crack!