Science Issues

[Twelve Motion]

how do I apply all these mods you are talking about?

[joncnunn]

See the Civ3-Creation board for details, but if you want a new structure, you just need to go into the editor and create it.
That board also explains how to create new races.

Originally posted by Twelve Motion
how do I apply all these mods you are talking about?

[Terra Nullius]

vanilla/ptw ?
research ?!!

all you need's the pointy end of a stick, mate

have a nice day ...

but seriously,
tech extortion and leader farming will get you out of almost any hole you find yourself in

not so with conquests
sadly, since conquests, armies have become virtually useless
the only thing they're good for now is making more armies

* sounds of distant rumbling
as mount theseus stirs in its slumber

however, in vanilla/ptw a few lucrative peace treaties and a couple of leaders will get you safely through

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Religious was also somewhat too powerful in Vanilla and can't be toned down either.

heretic

[Kuciwalker]

And @ the DL's name

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by lebensraum
not so with conquests
sadly, since conquests, armies have become virtually useless
the only thing they're good for now is making more armies

* sounds of distant rumbling
as mount theseus stirs in its slumber

however, in vanilla/ptw a few lucrative peace treaties and a couple of leaders will get you safely through

I am not sue I grasp this one. Do you mean MGL's are good only for making armies? Because armies are far from useless in C3C, they in fact rule. Most would say they are too powerful in conquest.

[punkbass2000]

Esepcially as the AI rarely uses them.

[Terra Nullius]

exactly

ai field operations = crap

armies only increase your advantage in the field

in vanilla/ptw
army costs: one leader (ouch) and two - three otherwise viable, upgradable units
army serves one purpose: create more leaders via heroic ep

a farming we will go ...

well, i'm a culture slut and i'll build 'he' just for the cp's of it

c3c battle creates a stronger delineation between civ & mil functions of the empire

in vanilla, going to war was a cultural as well as a defence or resource imperative

Edit: oh ... and research

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
And @ the DL's name

DL ? ...

[vmxa1]

lebensraum I would suggest that an army even in C3 or PTW would be a good investment, depending on what else you could do with the leader.

If you are playing at say Monarch you can beat the AI to a wonder the old fashion way. That army takes 3 units, but is worth a lot more than 3 units. It can single handedly beat down the AI, even without the goodies from C3C.

Lets say you had the horses in the army. You could not take down that size 7 city with just three horses, unless it had almost no defenders. The army could take it down and defend it.

It pays for itself and you can build your HE to try to get more leaders. I once cranked out 55 leaders in a CivIII game.

All you would have given up is the wonder you could have rushed with the leader and there is no reason you could not get the wonder anyway at most levels. You can still go on and be a builder, Actually most of the so called warmonggers are what I call builders anyway.

[Terra Nullius]

as to the utility of armies, i disagree

say you have three vet swords attacking into a town defended by two spears
normally, they should win, and take the town in one turn

put those same swords in an army and you can't take out two spears in one turn anymore because, instead of three units giving you three possible combat events, you now have one unit. sure, the army will win the combats but you get only one combat event per turn

it gets worse...
say your first two swordsmen are succesful but wounded
then those two swordsmen can rest and heal while the third moves on to the next target
armies ... heal ... slowly

in fact overall i'd have to say armies just slow me down

[Terra Nullius]

the only reason i would use an army (van/ptw) is to have one successful combat so i can go leader farming

tech extortion and leader farming alone will allow you to catch up and lead in tech at pretty much any level, including deity

if the question is ... how do i stay in the game from a research point of view
the answer is simple ... go beat the b*ll*ks off somebody

how do i stay in the game from a cultural point of view?
see above

how do i stay in the game from a diplomatic point of view?
good question .. i'll let you know if it ever happens

none of this holds true for c3c
leaders - brought up the ol' fashened way - can do very little for you except increase your combat strength by making more armies

in van/ptw: violence engenders art, culture, scientific wonders...
in c3c: violence only engenders ... well ... a deep, tranquil sense of well-being

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by lebensraum
as to the utility of armies, i disagree

say you have three vet swords attacking into a town defended by two spears
normally, they should win, and take the town in one turn

Against two spears, I would expect to lose at least one sword, possibly two if I'm unlucky. Otoh, I'd expect not to lose any army.

put those same swords in an army and you can't take out two spears in one turn anymore because, instead of three units giving you three possible combat events, you now have one unit. sure, the army will win the combats but you get only one combat event per turn

Not true in C3C. All armies get an additional move or attack so not only do you attack twice with a three sword army, you'll almost surely win twice and not suffer any casualities. Also, the AI is loathe to attack a full strength army while it has no problem at all weakening or killing your swords on their slow trip to their city.

it gets worse...
say your first two swordsmen are succesful but wounded
then those two swordsmen can rest and heal while the third moves on to the next target
armies ... heal ... slowly

Again, true for vanilla or ptw, not C3C where armies not only heal fully within one turn in a barracks city, they heal in enemy terriory even without battlefield medicine.

In vanilla or ptw, the time when armies really shined was around the mid to late middle ages when defensive strengths stated to exceed the best attack strength available. Try attacking a city of riflemen with cavalry and you'll find you lose quite a few. Every lost cavalry is 80 shields of production lost. Put those cavalry in armies and the extra hps turn losses into wins. Yeah, it takes a few turns to heal, but meanwhile your city is building new units, not replacement units.

none of this holds true for c3c
leaders - brought up the ol' fashened way - can do very little for you except increase your combat strength by making more armies

You're looking at things too narrowly. Armies lead to victories which leads to tech/gold extortions, weaker AIs, wonder capture and resource/lux capture. The only thing armies can't help with is culture.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by lebensraum
as to the utility of armies, i disagree

say you have three vet swords attacking into a town defended by two spears
normally, they should win, and take the town in one turn

put those same swords in an army and you can't take out two spears in one turn anymore because, instead of three units giving you three possible combat events, you now have one unit. sure, the army will win the combats but you get only one combat event per turn

it gets worse...
say your first two swordsmen are succesful but wounded
then those two swordsmen can rest and heal while the third moves on to the next target
armies ... heal ... slowly

in fact overall i'd have to say armies just slow me down

Send those 3 units as horses and they do not win at all. Send those swords and the AI has attackers it can send and whittle down those swords before they get to the city. They will not attack the army.

As to you scenario, I am not sending on a lone sword to do anything, except pillage or capture workers.

Most of the time your three swords will lose at least one unit, while the army loses nothing. If the city has more than 2 defenders, you probably do not capture it at all.

The army will either captue it or break it down. Of course if this is C3C, you got nothing to even talk about. The army attack multiple times and heals quickly. It got there way beofre the swords did and before the city gets reenforced.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by lebensraum
the only reason i would use an army (van/ptw) is to have one successful combat so i can go leader farming

tech extortion and leader farming alone will allow you to catch up and lead in tech at pretty much any level, including deity

if the question is ... how do i stay in the game from a research point of view
the answer is simple ... go beat the b*ll*ks off somebody

how do i stay in the game from a cultural point of view?
see above

how do i stay in the game from a diplomatic point of view?
good question .. i'll let you know if it ever happens

none of this holds true for c3c
leaders - brought up the ol' fashened way - can do very little for you except increase your combat strength by making more armies

in van/ptw: violence engenders art, culture, scientific wonders...
in c3c: violence only engenders ... well ... a deep, tranquil sense of well-being

I run over the AI in C3 or PTW at all levels except deity, where I win. So I do not have to catch up at any level other than emperor and deity. It is possible to not have to catch up at emperor.

I don't care about diplomacy, I don't use it much. I don't sweat wonders in any of the three versions. I don't need them and I will get some even at Sid. I can nearly always build the GL at sid.

It is quite easy to build your wonders from scratch in all the games. C3C is worse, since you have too many wonders.

All leaders do for you in C3C is to turn out the lights for the other civs. I rarely have any SGL as I play mostly at sid and only get a few techs first until modern age. I sometimes get SGL's then, but who cares then.

The last time someone posted a C3 game at monarch that I played for them I build every single wonder in the game. So I don't know how it could be any easier than that.

In C3 or PTW it is much easier to win the game with no wars at all. In C3C you are more likely to need to war as resources are often in short supply and you can only get them by conquest.