Science Issues

[Twelve Motion]

I am playing this game on Monarch mostly. I used to play Civ II on Diety, but this game is just different enough that I need to get used to it. One of the things I have noticed is, I can't ever seem to get ahead in science. In Civ II once I got the ball rolling, I was WAY ahead in science if I had libraries and universities all over the place. In this game it seems that I am always laggin behind and it's never a worthy persuit.

I have read on many threads here that you guys don't worry aobut science much and just make lots of money so you can trade, but do you ever change that to get science yourself? Or do you go the whole game simple trading for your sceince?

[punkbass2000]

I usually do start researching myself at some point, but it's hard to say where and win. It's very situational.

[Dominae]

You can definitely be a tech leader in Civ3. Some things to keep in mind:

1. Commerce. You need to put a Road on every single tile that your cities are working, and Republic or Democracy is a must for an aggressive research pace.

2. Trading. You need to check the Diplomacy advisor regularly (as often as you can stomach) in order to see what the AIs have for trade and if you can make a deal. Otherwise the AIs will trade techs behind your back, which means lost profits for you.

3. Selection. You need to know which techs to research. There is no one right answer in any given situation, but there are some rules of thumb. In the Ancient era, the Philosophy beeline (Alphabet-Writing-Philosophy) is very powerful because you get a free tech. In the Medieval era the Military Tradition beeline is good if you think you can surprise the AI with Cavalry, otherwise the top branch is better. In the Industrial era, always make a point of getting the Theory of Evolution, and take Atomic Theory and Electronics as your free techs.

4. Libraries. Libraries are, um, really good. Do not expect to beat the AI in research unless you have Libraries in your core cities.

5. Science Slider. If you are going to research, research full out, i.e., as close to 100% Science as you can afford. Do not try to earn Gold while researching, focus is better. Consider that if you have Libraries everywhere but not Marketplaces, 100% Science yields 150% of your Commerce, but 50-50% Science-Taxes only gives 125%.

Hope this helps.

[Arrian]

I play on Monarch and I typically take the tech lead in the medieval age and never relinquish it.

The "never do your own research" line is for really high difficulties (certainly above Emperor). On Emperor or below, it's entirely possible to do your own research and be competitive.

The basis for good research is a sound economy. The keys to that are, IMO:

1) Lots of cities, appropriately spaced (I am considered something of a oddity in that my cities are spaced City-tile-tile-tile-City. That's wider than most people use).

2) Terrain improvement. There are two parts to this. First, optimizing what you order your workers to do (especially early on). Second, learning that it's virtually impossible to have too many workers.

3) BIG cities. You want to get your cities up to size12, using 12 developed tiles each. Put that together with #1 and you will blow the AIs economies out of the water (on Monarch, that is ).

4) Government choice - Republic is usually the strongest overall choice, especially if you're after the tech lead. Democracy may be appealing, but consider how much anarchy you will incur (if you're religious, it may be worth it. Otherwise... probably not).

5) City improvements. Not just libraries and universities! Courthouses to lower corruption, and markets/banks to boost your treasury. The forbidden palace also plays its part in reducing corruption.

In addition to having a sound economy, there are other factors:

Trade with the AI. You can aim for a "branch tech lead" and trade tech from that to gain multiple techs from the AIs. Always trade on YOUR turn, and trade with all the AIs at once (unless, of course, they have nothing to offer you). Once you get a clear tech lead, start trading with the aim of getting as much gold per turn from the AIs as possible. That will hamper their research ability.

Slider tweakage. No matter how much you pour into research, you will never get a tech faster than 4 turns. This often results in the 4th turn of research needing only a small amount of beakers to finish the tech. So always play with the slider setting on that last turn (or even with 2 turns to go).

I may be missing a few things...

-Arrian

[Arrian]

4. Libraries. Libraries are, um, really good. Do not expect to beat the AI in research unless you have Libraries in your core cities.

I'd like to add that the AI typically does not research literature - or at least it assigns a very low priority to it. Thus, it is one of the very few techs I almost never trade to the AI. The AI will often be in the mid-middle ages before it bothers to get Lit & build any libraries. Meanwhile, I'm running away with the tech lead.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Also, on Monarch, you will get a feel for how far you can push the Philosophy beeline. If I have a decent start and I'm commercial or seafaring (start with alphabet), I will go writing - code of laws - philo --> Republic for free. Republic is MUCH more expensive than CoL, so if you can swing that it's a big boost, even if you don't switch to Republic right away (I often do, but sometimes switching immediately could hurt at first due to loss of MP & unit support).

-Arrian

[Twelve Motion]

Alright great stuff thanks alot everyone. Of course I know all about good economy, it just doesn't seem to be working for me. I put the slider on 80% science and it still takes 14-17 turns for my next advance... But my cities are usually rather small, I need to do a better job of making graneries.

Also can you give me the story on scientists? Should I use them? Or are tax men or some other specilist better even if I am going to a science lead?

[Arrian]

But my cities are usually rather small, I need to do a better job of making graneries.

That's a HUGE factor, trust me.

Also can you give me the story on scientists? Should I use them? Or are tax men or some other specilist better even if I am going to a science lead?

As with most things, my answer is "it depends." I will usually only use specialists if I'm:

1) In anarchy and must use them to keep a city from rioting.

2) Deliberately starving a captured city.

3) Trying to keep a small totally corrupt town happy (like a town I got in a peace treaty). The luxury slider will have no effect on a town like that.

However, sometimes I will encounter a situation where 1 of my "core" cities has grown faster than the rest and thus it is the only one that will riot if I don't do something. Using the luxury slider to keep that 1 city happy when I've got 20 cities is rather wasteful. So I will use a scientist there.

As to scientist vs. taxman, almost always go with the scientist, because the scientist produces 3 beakers whereas the taxman produces 2 commerce. Advantage scientist! The only time I go with taxmen is if I'm about to discover a tech and adding 3 more beakers will not change the slider setting.

-Arrian

[gunkulator]

I'd also like to add:

1) Contacts: You simply must go out and meet your neighbors. More contacts = more tech deals. Why trade Literature to a single AI when you can trade it to all of them? A common strategy is to send curraghs and galleys overseas to the next continent. Yes, many will sink and the AI will never do this but it gives you exclusive trading rights to a bunch of civs through to the end of the Middle Ages. You can freely trade military techs to overseas civs since they can't harm you or trade to your neighbors.

2) Wonders: or lack thereof. Ignore all the ancient era ones, with the notable exception of Statue of Zeus. SoZ needs Ivory and so you are unlikely to be able to build it anyway. At upper levels, however, there are some decent strategies with the Great Library but these should be avoided until you get a better feel for the game.

3) Civ Choice: While the debate over the "best" civ is never ending, there are clearly some strong ones out there. You'll have an easier time starting out with the Iroquois, Dutch, Persians or Egyptians.

4) Overcoming Civ2 biases: This may be the hardest of all. The game sure seems similar to Civ2 but there are enough differences to force you to change your strategy. Most of the crutches you got used to in Civ2 are gone, e.g. Fundamentalism, infinite non corrupt cities, diplomats & spies, caravans, howitzers, stack death, zone of control, very predictable combat.

[joncnunn]

Re: Science Issues

For a Deity level Civ II player having trouble with Monarchy, the number one cause would be excessive use of the luxary slider, dimenining both science & taxes.

Having many luxary resources in your trade network + Market Places in every city have taken the place of the Civ II luxary slider [running non-fundie] in Civ III.

Another cause can be forgetting to micromanage the science slider to eliminate wasted beakers.

In Civ II, each city's science was calcualated seperately so you wouldn't waste many beakers and could actually reserach two techs the same turn. In Civ III, taxes and science is calculated in masse, all extra beakers that turn are thrown away.

The other main difference is that in Civ III, Court Houses are much more important. In Civ II, become any of Fundie, Commie, or Democracy and you don't need Court Houses at all. In Civ III, almost all cities will evenually benifit from having a Court House.
There's also placing the FP in a good location.

Originally posted by Twelve Motion
I am playing this game on Monarch mostly. I used to play Civ II on Diety, but this game is just different enough that I need to get used to it. One of the things I have noticed is, I can't ever seem to get ahead in science. In Civ II once I got the ball rolling, I was WAY ahead in science if I had libraries and universities all over the place. In this game it seems that I am always laggin behind and it's never a worthy persuit.

I have read on many threads here that you guys don't worry aobut science much and just make lots of money so you can trade, but do you ever change that to get science yourself? Or do you go the whole game simple trading for your sceince?

[vmxa1]

Two things that will be the cause of not being able to get the tech lead, if all others are more or less equal.

Lack of contacts with all civs and under developed empire. You must get your fair share of the land and it needs to be decent land. Then it needs to be build as Dom and Arrian mentioned.

The lack of contact will hurt as the more civs you know that know a given tech the cheaper it is to research.

It also helps as you will have more civs to peddle the tech you learn to for tech/gold/luxs, whatever you need.

If you are not in the tech lead with a decent start by the early middle ages one of those (or both) are the cause.

Oh, forget anything you learned from CivII, it does not apply. CivII was a great game, but was very easy to master.

[Twelve Motion]

Ok great thanks again.

By the way for anyone that plans on giving any more info, I have a mac, and therefor don't have the exp to this game. So things like Statue of Zues, or being Persia I can't do

When is civ 4 coming out?

[vmxa1]

Persia is in the original game, but yes Mac means no expansions.

Civ4 is in beta testing as best as I can tell, so maybe by summer.

[Arrian]

Ah, no expansions. Forget what I said about the Philosophy beeline, then. You only get a free tech from Philo in Conquests.

However, the vanilla game sported an extremely powerful Forbidden Palace (as opposed to the significantly weaker one in Conquests). You may want to read the old threads on Palace/FP placement (those may be included in the "Must Read" thread list that is topped in this forum).

-Arrian

[joncnunn]

You can play Persia in Vanilla.

Yes, no Statue of Zeus, and a few other wonders and buildings. But Vanilla could be modded to allow imporvements and some of the wonders.

Note that every Native American civ that was in Vanilla have different traights in Vanilla, and so does England.

Industrialist traight was over the top in Vanilla and the Expanionistic traight was weak as well. [You can mod Vanilla to fix Expanionistic being too weak but can't mod it to tone down Industralism.] Religious was also somewhat too powerful in Vanilla and can't be toned down either.

The Wall Street SW requires 5 Banks in Vanilla, this considerly increases the priority of getting 5 Banks in Vanilla compared to Conquests. This is also modable.

Corruption and FP works differently in vanilla. Bascially, under Vanilla a city can have a CN so large that having just a Court House does no good whatever, or just being in a WLTPD does no good whatsoever, but having both brings the city out of virtually corrupt status.

And the ideal location for the FP in Vanilla is as far from your Palace as possible. (New city rank orders.) But unless you happen to have a spare leader, your going to be somewhat restricted by the sites that would acquire complete the FP in a reasonable timeframe (after building the CH and assuring it's in a WTLPD)

Communism is weaker in Vanilla, and there's also no Feudalism or
Fascism.

Timing of Civ 4; Maybe in time for Christmas 2005.

Originally posted by Twelve Motion
Ok great thanks again.

By the way for anyone that plans on giving any more info, I have a mac, and therefor don't have the exp to this game. So things like Statue of Zues, or being Persia I can't do

When is civ 4 coming out?