Forbidden Palace

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Modo44
You see, the problem is, only a small empire might profit better from an overall addition to production, because only a small empire has good enough infrastructure to use all those added shields. But each war, or colonization, gives you cities that will have hardly any use for this one shield, making it mean a lot less. At the same time, adding 32 shields to a low-corruption, high-industry city will give you a strong, constant boost (more like 64 shields, after Industrialization...). Also, those shields spread out in the empire only really help with relatively cheap improvements/units. If I have to build something expensive, then sorry, but I want 32 shields, not 1. Now tell me, how exactly does the 1 shield in outlying areas help build a great wonder in one city?

I said many times that I wasnt arguing about the fact that in many particular cases, it is better to get an increase in one city than in many city.

But your (and vxma's ) earlier claim, that you get more things produced if the increase is in one city is wrong.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Lul Thyme
But your (and vxma's ) earlier claim, that you get more things produced if the increase is in one city is wrong.

I definately get more things produced with 32 shields that become 64 shields (doubled in a developed city), than with 32 shields that stay 32 shields. Twice as many things "on average".

And you are wrong about this not being an option, although I admit it often happens at a point, when the game is already won. Namely, you can take someone's capital, which is far away an produces 1 uncorrupted shield, then rush the FP, to get this single city up and running. Maybe you won't get 32 shields, but my guess is, it won't be far from it (you often get to keep the Factory AI has built).

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Modo44

I definately get more things produced with 32 shields that become 64 shields (doubled in a developed city), than with 32 shields that stay 32 shields. Twice as many things "on average".

And you are wrong about this not being an option, although I admit it often happens at a point, when the game is already won. Namely, you can take someone's capital, which is far away an produces 1 uncorrupted shield, then rush the FP, to get this single city up and running. Maybe you won't get 32 shields, but my guess is, it won't be far from it (you often get to keep the Factory AI has built).

Yes but I never claimed any of the two statements....
You're arguing the strawman...
Anyway this is drifting abit off topic

[Terra Nullius]

'kay...

so, some of us still think fp IS worth building

next question...

does anyone have some general thoughts on timing?

personally i want the thing up and running asap but it seems some people don't bother with it until something like industrial ages
i seem to find lately that if i don't have fp up and running before gunpowder, i'm in trouble - the ai starts taking the lead in production and i get swamped

if i try to build too early, though, my glorious empire has not quite taken shape and i end up missing out on the choice locations

otoh if i can fight a coupla wars, secure strat. resources and build fp before gunpowder... then i've got it beat

any thoughts...

[joncnunn]

Under a non-Commie govt:

Basically, building the FP anywhere will reduce corruption in the Palace core area and actually expand the core area in much the same way that building Court Houses and Police Stations and having a WLTPD [shields only] does.

What your deciding with the FP location is which area will become your second core and how large that core is. If the city that your FP is in is too high, the FP core becomes exactly one city. OTOH, placing the FP in a city that's already in the Palace core doesn't offer much in the way of further improvement.

Court Houses will still be needed in the FP centric area to keep the cities as core much more than the Palace centric area, and the FP centric area will also benifit more from Police Stations and being in a WLTPD [sheilds only] than most of the Palace centric cities.

This may be a reason why those that can't be bothered to build Court Houses [and rush them under a cash-rush govt] just place the FP next to the capital.

[joncnunn]

Under a Communist govt:

Corruption is communial, so you have exactly 1, 2, or 3 core cites.

1. Palace. Won't really need a Court House

2. Forbiden Palace. Will probably benifit from a CH + PS. Was probably built long before you went Commie.

3. SPHQ. Will probably benifit from a CH + PS. This can only be built by a Communist govt [but you can store shields for it like everything else], so what your really looking for is the city with the most near term potiential shield output that's inside your empire that's not the P nor FP. (An Iron Works city generally calls out for the SPHQ.) But if there's no IW city, there's still probably a city or two that's practiclly begging for it.

All the non-core cities will greately benifit from a CH and PS if your empire is large enough. If your empire isn't currently, I sugest you build lots of units and enlarge it militarily. There's not much point in being a peaceful communist.

[Barinthus]

How do I determine which cities are considered to be Palace-centric core?

[Terra Nullius]

right
i guess sphq relates much better to an ironworks city in terms of timing
if i sit around waiting to discover coal, it's just way too late for me to be building fp

don't really agree with the courthouse/police station thing but
1) who's got time for building ch so early in the game - i'm normally flat out doing other stuff
i really don't want to stop and build 15 courthouses until maybe after my early medieaval wars
2) police stations are just too late in the game for me
let's face it, by the time i'm able to build them, i'm generally suffering renal failure from the excessive levels of caf & nicotine
but you might be right...
i'll get aroung to playing large map myself one year

[Modo44]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Under a Communist govt:

Corruption is communial, so you have exactly 1, 2, or 3 core cites.

1. Palace. Won't really need a Court House

Are you sure? Since every Courthouse reduces corruption in Communism, wouldn't it be better to put one in every city, including the one with Palace?

[joncnunn]

Core cities are the most productive cities in terms of trade and/or sheilds after corruption affects.

Pre FP, those are all palace centric under non-commie govt, but note that this natural zone will expand somewhat once the FP is built.

The rules of thumbs I use is if I can quickly build the FP without a leader with zero or one corruption fighting mechnisms, it's probably too close and also if the FP would take forever to build without a leader even with both a Court House and a WLTPD, it's probably too far away.

Generally if your empire includes two large land masses, the Palace should be on one land mass and the FP on the other.

For one land mass, it's more complex, but if there's some really unproductive land in the middle of your empire [a large desert when NOT playing an agriculture civ], having the Palace and FP on opposite sides of that chasm may be a good placement.

There are also cases where the Palace itself should be moved, in which case it's generally best to first build the FP near the Palace and then build the Palace at the new location, paricularly when you end up conquering your neighbors larger and more productive land.

Originally posted by Barinthus
How do I determine which cities are considered to be Palace-centric core?

[joncnunn]

Originally posted by lebensraum
right
i guess sphq relates much better to an ironworks city in terms of timing
if i sit around waiting to discover coal, it's just way too late for me to be building fp

don't really agree with the courthouse/police station thing but
1) who's got time for building ch so early in the game - i'm normally flat out doing other stuff
i really don't want to stop and build 15 courthouses until maybe after my early medieaval wars
2) police stations are just too late in the game for me
let's face it, by the time i'm able to build them, i'm generally suffering renal failure from the excessive levels of caf & nicotine
but you might be right...
i'll get aroung to playing large map myself one year

2. The point of Police Stations for non-commie is that they arrive about the time that it becomes difficult to keep cities in WLTPD on higher difficulty levels, and so they are really maintaigning the same low percentage of shield corruption for your metro that it enjoyed while stuck at size 12 with a CH and in a WLTPD. Built across the board in the core, it also greatly improves both taxes and science. Built just outside the core, it enlarges the core.

1. That's why there's cash rushing once the forests are chopped. The Court Houses will noticably save turns off of most structures that you pay full price for and also the more expensive military units like Knights. And if you don't have the cash for rushing and don't want to slow down tech, the Court Houses can be phased in where advengious. This generally amounts to cities just outside the edge of the core zone first building the Court Houses while the core does build the military units, and then swaping.

I tend to use 45 - 67% corruption as my guide to which cities need the Court Houses the fastest.

[Aqualung71]

I'll weigh into this debate, since I've studied alexman's corruption analysis in quite some detail over the last year.

My conclusion: generally, build the FP as soon as you can, in a location that is close enough to the Palace to enable you to build it in (say) 20 turns or less. This will generally be a town that is only 2 or 3 towns from your capital. The ideal location may well be slightly further away, but unless you have an MGL handy to rush it immediately, the additional time it will take to build will represent an opportunity cost that is likely to exceed the additional long-term benefit of finding the "ideal" location.

The effects of reduced corruption and waste will be significant, particularly in large empires. If you build it much further away from your Palace (particularly at higher difficulty levels), the high rank of the surrounding cities will kill any benefits you will get from reduced distance corruptiion.

I will often set-up my planned FP city with a Granary, Courthouse and Aqueduct (if necessary) to ensure maximum population and speed of build. These may be rush-built.

As for the argument regarding the marginal benefit of extra shields, I think some of you are not seeing the forest for the trees here. Firstly, increased shield production is only one benefit of the FP. the greater benefit IMHO is the reduced corruption, which in overall percentage terms will be significant, and will provide you with lots more cash for research and trade.

Secondly, it is certainly true that there are different benchmark shield production numbers for various units, above which you may waste shields. For example, an Infantry unit at 90 shields takes 3 turns if you have 30 shields production, and only 2 turns if you have 45 shields. If you have 44 shields, it still takes 3 turns and you waste 42 shields on the 3rd turn. This is from where the argument for the "useless" production increase of the FP stems. However, if we are micromanaging our empire properly, then in the case where the FP increases our net production from 30 shields to 33 shields, we should be re-irrigating some of our mined tiles to reduce shield production back to 30 shields, which increases the food surplus and hence improves our growth rate, which in turn increases commerce more quickly. So the shield production benefit of the FP, in cases where it cannot be efficiently used to reduced production times, can be re-worked into greater commerce.

Which leads me back to the most important Civ3 maxim....you can never have too many Workers!

[vmxa1]

I don't have a problem with your perspective, except the example.
If you talk about a middle age unit, then fine. Irrigate to grow, could make sense.

If you talk about infantry units, it is beyond the growth concern. This city is already at 12. Now do I have a hospital here, probably not.

If I have infantry, I am not real concerned about research, just troops and support for them. Research is not an issue for me, unless I am at demi where it is a choice. Below that level at that stage, I already have the lead. Above demi, I probably will not try to get the lead.

[Aqualung71]

True.....I agree it's possibly a bad example, but the principle is still correct and very applicable to the Middle Ages when you have just come out into a non-despotic government and need to grow quickly while maintaining a decent production rate. Having your FP up can make a substantial difference at this time.

[Theseus]

vmxa1, I think you might be missing something useful: The benefit in usable shield production is NOT spread around across the empire... it will tend to show up in crap cities as +1, but in larger cities that have significant shield production but high waste, you may get as many as 5 or more shields per turn 'back', which can often be more than enough to shave turns off of unit builds.

Can we say 28spt -> 30spt? Or even better, 28spt -> 34spt?