Forbidden Palace

[alexman]

It's just you and everyone else who has not installed the latest patch (or at least 1.15 or later).

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by alexman

Isn't #1 contradicting #3?

If you read carefully, Sir Pleb doesn't claim the FP is useless, it's just not as powerful as he expected. But that's because he was used to the way it worked before the 1.15 patch.

Take it from the corruption geek: whoever doesn't build the FP is making a huge mistake. And pvzh is right: It's much better than a University because it affects not only the FP city and the surrounding cities, but all your cities.

#1 is not contradicting as much as it is not clear.

I maintain that the increase OCN is of less import if you play on a huge map with a commercial trait civ.

This is due to the idea that I am not all that interested in empire wide corruption savings. I am interested in reduction in a few cities and the FP does not do all that much in that regard.

What I am talking about is, I want to make as many troops as I can and they will be more and more shield demanding. So if you give me a slight reduction in a couple of surrounding cities and a bit more in the FP city, I just do not care about it. I would rather the city that could eventually build the FP make units for now. Later I may find an opportunity to do it, maybe even use an MGL.

I actually would rather have another army than the FP in the middle ages.

I do not care that I shaved off some percentage of corruption empire wide. Hardly any of my cities will be able to build calv or later units with this boost.

I will still be forced to use a handful of cities and maybe the FP city and not much more.
I am fighting civs with standing armies in the hundreds and they will be able to replace loses very much faster than me. I need lots of units to garrison newly conquered cities, especially if I cannot get settlers to that area right away.

Even more if I elected to stay in Monarchy. Now if you are playing the game at Monarch or lower, have at it. It still does not matter, it only makes your victory more pleasing. Do as you will. It is at emperor or demi I would tend to have a concern for the FP.

This is because the reduced empire wide corruption will help be with research and funding projects. Those are not important at other levels to me.

Lower levels, you do not need more research power and at higher levels it will probably not be enough to offset the AI. You will need more cities to do that.

That is my perspective, nothing else.

[alexman]

I maintain that the increase OCN is of less import if you play on a huge map with a commercial trait civ.

Check out Sir Pleb's Sid-level Iroquois empire on a huge map (link above). Does that sound like the type of game where the FP does not matter to you? He gets about 10% more gold and 10% more shields from the FP (+50gpt and +32spt). How can you argue that a University would do more for him?

With the crazy power of Armies in C3C, I'm not saying that you should sacrifice a leader for the FP, but you should definitely build it.

[vmxa1]

Well I followed the game while it was being played. Like I said 32 shields or more likely a lot less shields at the point in time most will be making it sounds great. It would be if you got them in one or two or even three cities.

Spread out over a great empire it will not save one turn on that next build in most cases.

I am not sure what a university has to do with anything. I am not building a uni instead of an FP, that would be crazy.

[alexman]

Well, you did say above that you were not sure you agreed with the fact that the FP is better than a University.

In a large empire, a boost of even a couple shields will be enough to shave a turn off the unit build time in several cities. That's in addition to the extra gold per turn you get.

Another way to look at the FP: Do you hear anyone complaining that the Wall street is not worth building? It gives a maximum of +50gpt (no shields), and costs 50% more than the FP.

[vmxa1]

Actually you would not even face the choice of a uni or an FP. You would have built the FP before you even had the ability to build a uni.

When I said I "may" not even build one, I was being a bit loose. I really meant that when I first get the option, I will not be in a position to do it at that time.

It is true that I have forgotten that I did not build it a few times. but it was not a strategic choice, just an error or old mans disease.

Again this is really only at Sid. If I am playing Emperor, I will being looking to get it up quickly.

My point is that I do not see it as a matter of life and death and I sure do not see sweating its precise location. I will make a judgement based on experience, not the math. This may mean I am not getting it optimally placed, but surely you do not argue that matters in an SP game?

If it is MP or GOTM, then you have a reason the be thoughtful.

[vmxa1]

I guess what I am saying is that after C3C, I do not see the need to go nuts over the placement of the FP, so sue me.

[Drakan]

Originally posted by alexman

Isn't #1 contradicting #3?

If you read carefully, Sir Pleb doesn't claim the FP is useless, it's just not as powerful as he expected. But that's because he was used to the way it worked before the 1.15 patch.

Take it from the corruption geek: whoever doesn't build the FP is making a huge mistake. And pvzh is right: It's much better than a University because it affects not only the FP city and the surrounding cities, but all your cities.

When it comes to corruption in Civ .... Alexman you're my man.

Perhaps I didn't elaborate clearly on my first point. I meant the FP was useless in comparison with how it used to work back in PtW, it was so efficient and powerful at reducing corruption acting as a second capital then. Now it's mostly useful for raising the optimum number of cities and only indirectly reducing corruption (not directly as before).

Anyways, I still build it in every game but I certainly don't use a MGL for that. Given the way they've beefed up the Armies in C3C that would be a complete waste. But I would certainly use a SGL for that purpose because, to my best knowledge, the SGL's special ability of increasing tech output by 10% in the following 20 turns is broken, unless I'm mistaken. So using it to build the FP makes sense, unless you have a GW you are after, of course. But in the higher levels of game play I seriously doubt you will have the tech lead, so it is highly unlikely to pop a SGL at any time above Emperor IMHO.

We were having this same discussion in the Spanish forum of Poly a month ago.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Well I followed the game while it was being played. Like I said 32 shields or more likely a lot less shields at the point in time most will be making it sounds great. It would be if you got them in one or two or even three cities.

Spread out over a great empire it will not save one turn on that next build in most cases.

I am not sure what a university has to do with anything. I am not building a uni instead of an FP, that would be crazy.

Actually, on average an increase of 32 shields in one city will increase less the actual production of things (as in how many units you get every 50 turns say) than spread out over different cities...
The bigger the production, the bigger the chance for shields being wasted (not decreasing the number of turns)


think about it for a while, and if you still dont agree, then we can discuss it...

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Lul Thyme
Actually, on average an increase of 32 shields in one city will increase less the actual production of things (as in how many units you get every 50 turns say) than spread out over different cities...
The bigger the production, the bigger the chance for shields being wasted (not decreasing the number of turns)

You are forgetting the crucial thing here. The 32 shields in a developed city will multiply, possibly double. Getting 1-turn instead of 2-turn Tanks (or whatever that unit is you need) is quite the boon. Same goes for speeding up wonder production (great and small ones alike). 32 shields spread throughout the empire don't do that, as they often hit cities that aren't developed enough to profit.

[vmxa1]

That is what I was talking about. A shield here or there over bunch of cities is not what I want. In that type of a game.

Now 10-20 more shields in the right city could make a difference of 1 turn on some builds. It could let me get that small wonder that I want in time to be useful. I have to make up the massive cost bonus the AI gets.

It pays a lot less in shileds for it units/wonders. It does not have to care about getting the best out of the city. You see then with several tiles out of production due to pollution and they have no workers to clear it. They still can built the unit very fast.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Modo44

You are forgetting the crucial thing here. The 32 shields in a developed city will multiply, possibly double. Getting 1-turn instead of 2-turn Tanks (or whatever that unit is you need) is quite the boon. Same goes for speeding up wonder production (great and small ones alike). 32 shields spread throughout the empire don't do that, as they often hit cities that aren't developed enough to profit.

I am nor forgetting this and I still stand by my statement, which was that an increase of 32 shields spread out over a lot of cities, increases the total productivity (32-number of shield wasted by rounding) than if it is one city.

Since both of you disagree, I will write it out:

Imagine 32 cities with 1 shield producting items of variable shield (say cost from 50 to 100).
Then an increase of one shield in each, will double their production (so the production of the whole 32 cities) and will waste only 1 shield per thing build half the time (when the cost is odd).

Imagine 1 city with x production building items of variable shield, and it gets an increase of 32 shields, of those 32 shields on average, a lot more than 1/2 per item will be wasted....

So assuming both cases were building as fast (say the one city was building one item every x turn, and the 32 cities were building each every 32x turn) then ON AVERAGE, the 32 cities will be building faster than the one city after the 32 shield boost.

I know this is a slight threadjack, but vxma (who I think has great ideas, btw) was basically wrong in his statement that an fixed increase of shield in one city increases more production than distributed over a lot of cities.


If you still dont understand, I can give the general formulae for the probability of wasting shields and the proof..., or you can try building an example (dont forget I said on AVERAGE, so try to build a typical example, just random numbers) to convince yourself...

[Lul Thyme]

Now if you want to argue that in actual play, it is more important to have a few good cities, than pretty good all around cities, I am not arguing.
But this is subjective, and is not what I was talking about.

[Modo44]

You see, the problem is, only a small empire might profit better from an overall addition to production, because only a small empire has good enough infrastructure to use all those added shields. But each war, or colonization, gives you cities that will have hardly any use for this one shield, making it mean a lot less. At the same time, adding 32 shields to a low-corruption, high-industry city will give you a strong, constant boost (more like 64 shields, after Industrialization...). Also, those shields spread out in the empire only really help with relatively cheap improvements/units. If I have to build something expensive, then sorry, but I want 32 shields, not 1. Now tell me, how exactly does the 1 shield in outlying areas help build a great wonder in one city?

[Terra Nullius]

guys... it's actually not an option

given that fp might increase shield prod'n by (say) 32 shields, we don't get to make a choice about where those extra shields appear

yes, 32 shields in one city works best in some games
yes, 32 cities with one extra shield in each adds up to a lower overall probability of wasted shields

but... it just don't matter because that's not the choice you're making

the choice is simply
a) build fp ==> increase in shield production (in some cities)
b) don't build ==> no increase in production (but less time spent building wonders that you maybe don't need)

the big reason why 32 shields in one city would be a good thing is that the effect of marketplaces, factories &c is applied after calculating corruption. so, like modo says,
32 shields + 1 factory = 64 shields = good

but it's really a moot point because it's not a decision we get the opportunity to make

Originally posted by vmxa1

I maintain that the increase OCN is of less import if you play on a huge map with a commercial trait civ.

This is due to the idea that I am not all that interested in empire wide corruption savings. I am interested in reduction in a few cities and the FP does not do all that much in that regard.

did someone say metagame..?
...nooOOOOoooOOOOooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by choosing a comm. civ you buy your way out of the fp debate
it's like picking a militaristic civ in order to play the peacenik...
being militaristic you can afford to run down the defence budget because the troops you do build are stronger - if you get hit with a sneak attack you can still respond quickly

sorry but i'm a mil/rel fan ... it's all about hearts & minds you know