Forbidden Palace

[Golden Bear]

Actually FP placement. I have found some old threads from earlier C3C versions where FP was broken, but now it works.

I have not seem much recent conversation on this and I think that it is an important strategy factor in the game. Can people share their thoughts about FP placement?

I usually like to put my FP a fair distance away from the Palace in order to maximize the positive influence of each. I frequently use this as a decision factor when I am planning out my expansion. I don't want the FP to be stuck in the middle of deserts but rather in a grassland/hill region.

[Dominae]

I build it ASAP in any high Shield output city, like any other Wonder. This is because it's reduction in Corruption due to number of cities is far more important than it's reduction due to distance from the capital (and I typically have a rather dense empire). At least that's my understanding.

[vmxa1]

I think Dominae is correct. I have tried using in various longer distances and it seems to do very little for any of the adjacent towns.

I suspect that as I waited to put it farther out, I ran into the issue being way beyond the OCN.

I just do not know if it has much merit on a domination type game on large or huge maps. I suspect you could even skip it for those games.

If I get it up fairly soon after getting to the requisite city count and not real far from home, it was of some value.

[alexman]

I wouldn't say any high shield output city.
It's always best to build it in a city that it closer to the center of your empire than your Palace.

Also, the corruption reduction due to numer of cities is not far more important than the distance corruption reduction - it's just that delaying the FP build to get the ideal location is not worth the shields and income lost from not getting it up as soon as possible.

[Golden Bear]

So maybe 2-3 cities distant from the capitol? I'm doing CxxCxxC pretty much. I'll certainly be able to build it a lot sooner this way than if I put it out in a fringe city.

[Muad'Dib]

Re: Forbidden Palace placement

I like to wait until Steam Power to see where all the coal is located. If any location can build Iron Works thats where I place mine. Other wise, I usually don't build it unless I really need it. For instance, I'm on another large continent far from my shores and it has lots of resources on it then I'll build it.

[joncnunn]

Conquests latest patch, what your really looking for is a location far enough from your palace for the decreased distance production in the FP to matter, but not so far out that even with the increased OCN, the nearby cities aren't horriably corrupt from the city number formula.

Very good locations for this just happen to be around the limit of actually building it manually [with a Court House and a WLTPD at the intended destination.]

[Terra Nullius]

at the moment, i find the whole character of my early warfare is being determined by FP placement

i try to be as neighbourly as possible about it...
i do my best to build FP in the closest neighbouring capital, while my neighbours do their utmost to provide me with a leader
it's a simple, graceful solution and everyone comes out a winner

BUT!...it depends very much on difficulty level

@ Grog Level: This works perfectly
@ Orange Soda Level: Corruption due to distance gets too much and i have to build anywhere i can. Or to put it another way - Dominae was right (...uerrrgh)

Problem: If i want a really chioce spot for the FP, i have to annex a neighbour completely.
this really gets in the way of effective Oscillating War. that means no gradual pruning, no profitable peace treaties &c
So i can wipe out one guy entirely and have two strong productive cores or i can settle for a less than perfect FP placement and take a bite out of every civ i can get to
god.. i'm so conflicted

Basically, i reckon the FP placement decision
a) depends on difficulty
b) has a huge effect on early warfare

Oh yeah...Hi everyone - luv ya work!

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Conquests latest patch, what your really looking for is a location far enough from your palace for the decreased distance production in the FP to matter, but not so far out that even with the increased OCN, the nearby cities aren't horriably corrupt from the city number formula.

Very good locations for this just happen to be around the limit of actually building it manually [with a Court House and a WLTPD at the intended destination.]

Has anyone done any experiments or calculations to determine the optimum distance?

[punkbass2000]

I think so, but I can't remember where. In any case there's no 'optimum' distance; it's highly dependent on the situation (not to mention map size and difficulty level).

EDIT: Oh, and traits.

[joncnunn]

I'd say there is an optimum corruption level for the intended FP to have.
With trade connection, courthouse, and WLTPD :
If a Monarchy / Republic : around 50%
If still a Despont : 60 - 67%.
If a Democracy: Shouldn't be much more than 40%.

These numbers should post FP construction result in two core areas, the bigger around around your Palace [which thanks to increased OCN is now bigger than pre-FP], and the smaller one around the FP, and no city in between the Palace and FP being particularly unproductive with a Court House. The really unproductive cities will be those on the far side of the empire from the FP.

[Modo44]

If I have to build it the hard way (and I often do, not using leader farming), it's usually fairly close to the capital. I only build it farther away if I have a MGL to rush it and/or have acquired some prime real estate far from my capital. Usually speed dictates the choice - the sooner I get the FP, the better.

[Arrian]

@ Grog Level: This works perfectly
@ Orange Soda Level: Corruption due to distance gets too much and i have to build anywhere i can. Or to put it another way - Dominae was right (...uerrrgh)

That's awesome! Grog level and Orange Soda level

I'd agree with your analysis, by the way: "perfect" placement typically requires taking a large bite out of a neighbor (a neighbor's capital is often a good distance away). This is easier to do on Monarch, both because the AI will have less troops and because corruption is harsher the higher up you go, so if you're actually building it (as opposed to leader rushing it), it's harder to build one at "optimal" distance.

-Arrian

[Terra Nullius]

Hail Flavius Xenophon!

Originally posted by conmcb25


Has anyone done any experiments or calculations to determine the optimum distance?

Sticky, sticky question...
thought i'd throw up a few older threads on this

Everything you ever wanted to know about corruption
General Discussion of Corruption Calculations per City
(alexman)

FP+Palace placement (Archive)
(sabrewolf)

don't know that either of these quite answers the question, but there's nothing like a little hypertext to keep 'em guessing

i like the idea of having a mathematical model for FP placement. quantify the variables, define the boundary conditions and so on. but something tells me that's going to be one scary looking equation

maybe we could start with identifying some of the basic strategic assumptions..eg.
i) Palace Jump - are you planning to jump the palace later in the game
ii) Leaders - do you want to build it the hard way or not
iii) Geographic - what shape is your land mass, what is your empire going to look like when you're done
iv)If anybody reads this far... what about a Forbidden Palace Jump - ie build FP once in a non-optimal location, then later in the game, disband that city and rebuild FP somewhere more optimal

to me the basic question is still not so much "where do i put the FP" as "what effect does FP timing and location have on how and when i get to beat the *@^% out of someone"

Grog want Tank...WITH WINGS

[Golden Bear]

Things I think are true and would like corrected if I am wrong:

I don't think that FP can be built a second time even if the first city is erased.

I don't think that a MGL can force build FP. Did this change in 1.22?

In the absence of a SGL to force build FP, it seems a trade off:
Quicker "core" build but less area effect from FP.
More distant slow build with greater effect.

Personally, I had been doing the later slow build. But that is why I asked the question. I just finished a nice Emperor domination win in the 1600s with 7000 points and used the close/quick FP.

I'm so confused.