Great start (haven't had one of these in a while)

[Theseus]

Just screwing around (WHILE WAITING TO GET GOING IN PBEMS), and got a bee-you-tee-full start:

[Jon Shafer]

Not bad, a little lacking in shields though. That and the fact that it has no river kind of hurts also.

[Dominae]

Sweet. 4 turn Settler-pump in Amsterdam, 2-turn Worker pump in the second city either 44 or 87 of Amsterdam (probably better 44). Sweet.

Edit: Hm, Agricultural. Well, 87 might be better then. Trip: Wines are like Rivers...

[Jon Shafer]

Yeah, but they don't produce shields. Which is the biggest problem (later on anyways, it's quite good early in the game).

You got a total of only 5/21 tiles which will ever produce more than 1 shield prior to RRs. And there's not exactly an abundance outside of the city's radius either.

[Dominae]

I was sure you were going to point out that Wines are not like Rivers, because they do not give extra Food to Agricultural civs. Good, you are not among the Agricultural-worshipers.



It certainly is annoying that Shield production is not great around the capital. But the start is so amazing that it would not be a major issue. One Shield per tile is good enough to get 2-turn Warrior camps going, and that's all you really need productivity-wise. With such rapid expansion it should not be much trouble to generate enough Gold for upgrades.

[Jon Shafer]

Oh but I AM an AGR worshiper... just check out my article about food.

The wines already give enough food by themselves, the AGR bonus + river may even be weaker than a situation where you're non AGR and have that many wines (though that depends on the player). My main concern would be shields for unit and improvement production once you get larger cities. With enough shielded grass you can get 10 SPT from a size 5 or 6 city which is very powerful early on, even if you're alternating the city between Worker/Settler production.

[Theseus]

To quote someone else: 'The Case for Food'

[Jon Shafer]

Wow, someone went a little overboard.

[Theseus]

What I neglected to mention was that I set this up somewhat in response to StainlessSteel's thread... it is Huge, with only 12 total civs. I've got a ridiculous expanse of shielded grassland to the west... yes, short on hills for max shields, but I feel like a Goth first viewing western Europe.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Trip
Wow, someone went a little overboard.

Again, 'The Case for Food'.

[Jon Shafer]

How many Granaries you got in that game?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Trip
My main concern would be shields for unit and improvement production once you get larger cities. With enough shielded grass you can get 10 SPT from a size 5 or 6 city which is very powerful early on, even if you're alternating the city between Worker/Settler production.

For someone that's made the case for Food, you're very worried about Shields.

If you expand fast enough on terrain that's mostly Grassland (and even Plains), you will have enough Shields to secure a win. I'm talking all the way up to Deity here. 10spt is very powerful, but 2x 5spt is just as good and much easier to set up. It's the ICS argument all over again, but without actually ICSing. All you need to do is conquer one neighbor. This puts you into land parity or better with the AI civs. At that point, if you know what you're doing, you'll probably win. Lack of Hills will slow you down, but is not fatal.

The only Food-intensive starts that I would be worried about are those dang Flood Plains ones. There's no squeezing even one Shield out of those! Luckily, these are sometimes surrounded by nice Mountain ranges and Hills, so some Flood Plains starts are salvageable.

All that said, we've only seen a tiny bit of Theseus' starting location. There might be a nice patch of bumpy terrain just beyond his visible radius.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Dominae
For someone that's made the case for Food, you're very worried about Shields.

If you expand fast enough on terrain that's mostly Grassland (and even Plains), you will have enough Shields to secure a win. I'm talking all the way up to Deity here. 10spt is very powerful, but 2x 5spt is just as good and much easier to set up. It's the ICS argument all over again, but without actually ICSing. All you need to do is conquer one neighbor. This puts you into land parity or better with the AI civs. At that point, if you know what you're doing, you'll probably win. Lack of Hills will slow you down, but is not fatal.

The only Food-intensive starts that I would be worried about are those dang Flood Plains ones. There's no squeezing even one Shield out of those! Luckily, these are sometimes surrounded by nice Mountain ranges and Hills, so some Flood Plains starts are salvageable.

All that said, we've only seen a tiny bit of Theseus' starting location. There might be a nice patch of bumpy terrain just beyond his visible radius.

Nahhh, I'm not all that worried about shields. Food is so much more important that it's hard to compare. That's why I haven't written an article about shields.

A Flood Plains start can be alright if you're AGR (which I always pick if it's a competitive game or one I'm not holding back in).

This start is obviously excellent, but I'm just trying to explain how it's just not God's gift to civver-kind.

[Theseus]

I haven't seriously read Dom and Trip's above posts yet, 'cause I've been PLAYING (yay)...

This is where I am... it's almost embarassing to me, in terms of the lack of development. This is at Emperor, btw, so I am disadvantaged, but have caught up with Writing, and can already see that my positional / terrain advantage will give me the game. Arrian's UP... but harder!

BTW, given the start, I am thinking of a new CP paradigm... 4/3? Room for a great capitol...

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Trip
How many Granaries you got in that game?

One, at home.

The other towns don't have the irrigation yet to merit such, yet.