I suck, need to vent.

[vmxa1]

SSR, forgive me if I get confused with your game and some others I have looked at lately.

First I am willing to bet that you are not making a solid empire at the outset. This can mean that when you get a good start location, you get out to a decent start, but the AI will develop a KAI or two and you will eventually be boxed in.

I mean that they will start to pull ahead in land and then research. They will normally have more troops than you anyway, so you are going to be suffer.

I know I mentioned at the start of this thread to post a save to get some useful input.

Right now we are just going on blindly as we have no real knowledge of the game you are in.

So I will offer now to play a game with you and we will see how to build an empire.

I am not talking about playing in some perfect manner or making a magnificent empire like say Nathan, but a sure fire easy to learn, no special tricks game that you will win.

You can see how one method can be used to build a solid foundation. I do not like to see fans of the game not make it to the level of Monarch.

I don't care if people fail at emperor, as if they are beating monarch they are in good shape and probably have a handle on fundamentals.

No one will toss the game out if they don't win above monarch, but they do get upset if they can't win below emperor.

I am just messing around with LoD in Hell mode now, so I could take some time to play civ.

If you want to try it out post a 4000bc save with no action taken. Save the moment you get the worker turn. Spell out the setting you used (map size, type, barbs, # civs that stuff).

Play out to turn 100 and post that save. Otherwise just ignore this post. I won't be offend eother way.

BTW if you get very harsh starts and lose that is not a failure. I advocate not playing poor starts on levels that you do not routinely beat. It is not going to teach you anything, unless you are already able to win on that level.

Anyway most people here are willing to try to help players that want to improve.

[Theseus]

SSR, you cannot go wrong in vxma1's very capable hands... I and others will chime in as well. This is really one of the best ways to learn and dramatically improve your game!!

[iamweaver]

I feel *so* much better after perusing these forums (got Civ III tin-boxed pre-release, but dropped it in frustration ). I finally realized yesterday that Civ III isn't designed for the casual game player; the "average" setting seems to mean, "average if you can win Civ II on Deity half the time", and I only win Deity-level Civ II about 1/3 of the time .

[Theseus]

Welcome, iamweaver...

(almost three years later!! )

[StainlessSteel]

Cool

Ok, so if I understand correctly, I post the save game AFTER I move my worker the first time, then play out 100 turns (what year is that?) then post again, and we'll see how I compare to yours? I can do that. And thank you for the help/advice

I'll get a save game posted here soon.
If I'm wrong about the setup, let me know

[StainlessSteel]

Save Game

Ok posting a save game...
Standard size, Persia, monarch, roaming. Continents 70%water. All middle settings on climate. No linked culter starts and no perserve seed.

[vmxa1]

It is 550bc, but any time in that area is good. Just so you have enough turns to see some developments.

Before you moved the worker would be best, but don't worry. It is not about being perfect, just to see if we can find some sensible strat to be in a position to compete with the AI.

If you feel like posting one at 50 turns, as well (1750bc) go ahead.

I needed an excuse to stop trying to find a "cannot freeze" item anyway.

BTW I presume this is C3C, is that correct? I guess I will soon see.

[vmxa1]

I see you like less than stellar start locations. Lots of mountains in the capitol, ugh.

Anyway, the reason I was looking for a start where nothing was done, no worker move or even settle the city, is to see if any good moves were available.

When I looked at the start, I wondered, if maybe the better move (if settled on the spot) may have been to move 2 from the city.

It is tempting to jump on the tile you selected as it is a BG tile on a river, so extra commerce. The thing is what do you do after you improve that tile?

Nothing great is plain to see. If you had moved 2 instead, you still have a BG tile and then can work the next BG tile and at the same time make it easy to have the probable next city site all ready connected.

I have not calculated it out, so it may not be the better move, but at first glance it looks reasonable.

With the tile you selected, you have to either work a less valued tile or waste a turn moving.

[StainlessSteel]

Lol

I just posted my first start.
We could try again, but I warn you.. I usually get CRAPPY starting possitions...

I've gotten one where it was all desert and 1 plains in my 21 squares... hows that for a starting position?

Or you can make a file and I'll play it
*edit*
Especially since I only have 3 cities 2000 years later and that's cause I got a goodie hut settler. :P

Hee hee and my VERY first time playing Diablo, my first magic item was the Death Setpiece belt with cannot be frozen...

[vmxa1]

I could use a cannot be frozen, that is for sure. I played it out to the first 100 turns last night. I also got a settler and was I shocked. I can't remember the last tiem that happened.

I rarely ever played Persia, but I am disappointed in the science trait. No SGL and I know I was first to a bunch of tech as I got the free one from Philo. Oh, maybe you have turned off SGL in this game? I did not really expect one, but it would have been fun.

Anyway, the only issue with the start is that with no food bonus in sight, we can not do any pump stuff, so another time for that.

2000 yrs is only 42 turns from the start, so I would not be surprise to see very few cities with the lack of food. I don't know what I had, but I did not expand very fast either.

[vmxa1]

With out to much of a preview, in case you have not gotten that far. I will have to say I am sorry for being bad in this one and it may be of little value to you.

I was bad, because I could not resist the warrior + settler combo of Shakas when I ran into it. Getting into an early war and then going for some wonders, instead of expanding is not all that wise.

I had two warriors going up each side and one found them. The other had not seen any Zulu cities, so I wondered what was going on. I did not know if Shaka had ran into some bad luck or a war already, but I knew if I killed this combo, he was out of the running.

It turned out that he only had the capitol at 2670BC and now had lost the settler.

Soon after my other warrior stopped on a hill and forted up while it was attacked by Shaka. He sent an archer out each time in such a way that I would be healed and then fort before the next attack.

I could have left, but after two wins (no promo), I figured it was a freeroll (killed 4 with no promo). The warrior that killed the combo, ran into a roman combo.
I make a trade and then attack it. I figured they were so far away, it was safe.

Turns out that by the time I got my warrior and the new slaves back to Zimbob, it was mine and Shaka was gone. I had sent archers up with the idea of pillage, but when one attack an impi and was promoted with no lost of HP's, I went for the capture.

Rome sent a few units about, but no attacks and we made peace.

Oh I just recalled Shaka had sent a few units back towards my home. I had one city with no unit, but I covered it by killing his units on the way in.

So Rome lost a combo and Zulu is gone. The city I captured had ivory hooked up and I connected it to the capitol.

I ran into Hammy with my curraugh and he was backward. I forget where I am, but I had only about a half dozen cities.

I built the Collossus and SoZ. I took another chance here, I had the GL close to done, Rome was working on Soz. I swithced with a big loss of shields and risked not getting the GL.

I did this because I figure the GL is not going to be worth all that much and I still may get it. I am going to do a barracks for Zues, then a market for size 12 and then start it the GL again.

The civs I have met do not have Lit yet and will probably have small capitols. I am already at size 8 and growing, so I can do it I suspect. I have gems and ivory hooked up.

Anyway I figured that the free AC will make up for the lost shields and I do not want to fight AC. I do not want to use immortals so early and now I won't have to do it.

There is a lot of land and I do not have the food to fill it first, so I will have to kick someone off the land to take it back.

I was pretty sure that I could get Rome to peace with no real fighting or bribes. The reason is, I was a long way away and I would build an immortal or two for show. When they see them, they will not want to fight with archers and warriors.

I don't know if they do not have iron hooked or what, but I have not seen any legions. Even if they had them, they are not in a hurry to tangle with Immortals.

I also have the Lighthouse underway. I do not know what the other civs are up to, but giving that I was first to many techs and my city is close to the cap and has many mines and will get to size 12 soon, I have a good shot.

So in short, the game is won, but was not played optimally or even wisely. There is a lot of land with no civs strong enough to take it.

Some make come and land and build here before I can settle all the open land near me, but they will not be able to hold it.

AC + Immortals in a humans possesion is bad news for he AI at monarch level.

I also seem to recall seeing some furs, so at least three luxs are available down the road.

I was hoping to be able to get a good chance to use more of a builders game, as I do not want to give the idea it is smart to bop settlers. This is a strat that can back fire, but I explained why you could get away with it in these sets of circumstances.

Zulu only one city and Rome far away and you are Persia. So you have all got ancient UU's and yours is the strongest.

Even Hammy is weaker in that it cannot attack well.

Now you started getting those 5HP AC's out hunting barbs to get to elites and then see about making some MGL's.

Too bad you won't be able to whack those impi's with them. I have some details logged for later.

[StainlessSteel]

Funny

You win and I lose fast.

You know where I built. I produced a warrior to scout around and then a worker. Built roads to the plains south after uprading the 2 BG and the G+river tiles in the capitol's area. Produced a settler and moves him south next to the river. Built another warrior in each town and sent scouting. Got the settler hut to the south, and lost one of my warriors to a barb hut, north east I believe.

I must just get a lot of bad dice rolls. Lost 3 of my warriors to roving barbarians, then Zulus brought over 4 archers and wiped my 2 main cities out. He was 4 techs ahead of me and didn't even demand anything
My third (barb settler) town had romans approaching...Since that town had only produced 1 warrior so far, it was all over...
One of the reasons I usually go builder is I lose a LOT of units when I attack. I lose a LOT of swordsmen to warriors and archers. I NEVER build ironclads becuase I've NEVER won a battle with one. I'm beging to think my computer hates me.. :P

Damn I lose fast. I must not be producing the right things or something.... *sigh*

SSR

[vmxa1]

Ok, since you lost I won't wait for your post. I will put up my log and you can see what my plan or lack of one was and what took place.

[vmxa1]

Ok I am sorry that I did not put the kind of effort into the game I should have. I fired it up last night and was still in my LoD mode.

Anyway here is my best effort at reading my sloppy notes.

First thing I did was to open the city view and see what tile the gov chose to work and what else was around.

As I mentioned, I would have prefered to work the BG at 2 from the city as it had another BG next to it and leads to a site I would want to found soon (normally).

That was not available as the worker had been moved. I then hit F1 to see what I had. I selected Alphabet to get a run on Philo and to get a curragh available. I set the research to 100% as this is monarch and I figured I coud get cash from barbs or trades or huts in a pinch.

I elected to have the worker road first, again not always the way to go, but I was industrial, so I could get that road in two turns and hence get the commerce right away. It would not be long before I had a mine anyway and I did not need the extra shield right then.

3850BC I mined the tile
3750 BC finished warrior and started another and send the warrior out. Since mountains were everywhere, I would be able to see farther. I head out in a southernly direction as you look at the map.

I don't track the worker in this one, but IIRC I was trying to get some roads on the way to the BG tiles.
3350BC warrior pop a settler and the game is basically won right there. That is too strong for the AI to over come at this level. In effect I have just made up the stagger that the game gives the AI for this level.

I think I pretty much found the city where I got the settler. It started a warrior as I wanted my guy to keep going.

At the same turn a I found the city, the capitol make a warrior and starts another. I forgot what I was thinking at the time, but probably the length of time to make a settler was to long, due to the lousy food.

3350 pop CB with one of my warriors. I think I had two out at this time. The second one went north and then east. It had exposed the coast on the north west.

3150 I have a note that says only WC and I see ivory. I think that was the ivory out to the west. This got me in some trouble and wasted time. I eventually sent a combo out to found near it and I would have been better off to go south of the capitol as I originally intended. The settler was to far out to turn back, when I seen the Zulu capitol. So I am guessing I got a hut from the second warrior, but I am not sure.

[vmxa1]

Too bad you did not post your saves so I could try to see what went on. If you want to try another shot, do this:

make a game and save as soon as the game comes up and make no moves. Send the save to me vmxa AT sbcglobal DOT net.

Play 50 turns and send that save. I will have played the start and will make a log and we came walk it out to find where things are breaking down.

Anyway here is a bit more of the game.

3000BC start temple in Cap ( I noted I had a unit build in Pas I failed to log)

I would have made a worker in Pas, but it was 15 turns to the next growth and that was too long to wait. Better to get a unit and then the worker with a bigger city pop in place. At least that is my plan.

I learned Alpha and start Write.

2900 found Arbela on the coast to get a ship and maybe a wonder. It starts with a worker first, instead of a ship as it is plain to me I will not be able to get around this land mass in a hurry, so it can wait. I have already seen a lot of land.

2850 worker connects arbela and start a chop for the temple in the Cap.

2800 start worker in Pas
2710 I contact Shaka and he has Pottery. I offer first Mason and then CB, but all he will give is 30 gold, so no thanks. I did not offer Alpha. I contacted them from the far end of my sight.

2670 the warrior/settler combo pulls up next to me and I break down and kill them. It has been a long time since I have done this, as at higher levels this can be fatal. I send the slaves home to Pas, guessing the barbs are not out yet and I can avoid them if they are.

2070 start Philo at 90%
1750 contact Rome. They have Pottery/Wheel and IW
I traded Write for most of their gold (45) and Pottery. then attack the combo.

As I said before this was because we were so far from home and the lost of a warrior here was no big deal and I figured the war would amount to nothing.

This would not be a crippling blow to Rome as by now they had made some progress, but it would likely set them back a bit. Surely worth the price of a warrior.

Since I won the fight I lead the slaves back toward Zimbob and the warrior there. I had already sent out an archer from home to Zimbob.

1700 Learned Philo and took Lit as my free tech. Started on IW to make Immortals, in case.

1625 and Shaka is gone. I had three units in or near it to prevent Rome from attacking. They did send one archer towards it, but then turned off, once I got units there.

1575 start granary in Cap. I had not done it before as I have no +food and I could not afford to wait a long time to get it up.
Use two chops IIRC to get it done fast.

1525 founded Antioch (I think that was the settler/archer I was thinking of sending to fill in between Zimbob and home.

I have seen a few huts (from my ship), but could not go for them with the war and such. I doubt they would be of much value anyway.

1475 80% research now on wheel to find horses (I hope). Made peace even up with Rome. I don't think we had any battles.

1300 contact Carthage from curragh (yeah I got one out). They are behind me in tech and have nothing to offer.

1200 set lux to 10% to keep eveyone working. No lux hooked up yet.

I had more or less stop making notes as you can see.

825 trade Philo to Rome for Code of Laws + 50 gold as I was low on cash.

Traded HBR + Philo to hammy for Map making. I don't know wher I got HBR, if researched it or what.

800 Collosus is done.

550 SoZ done.

As I mentioned before I had about 7 turns to finish the GL and it was surely mine as no one had started it. I looked at the wonders screen and saw two things I did not like.

Rome was working on SoZ and they were too close to me now.
Hammy was working on the lighthouse. This makes me wonder why he traded Map. I guess he just wanted HBR and Philo a lot.

So I switched my cap from the GL to SoZ and it was done that turn. I switched Arbela from SoZ to the lighthouse.

I am pretty sure I would beat Hammy to the lighthouse, but who knows about the rest of the world. My guess is I have a good shot.

I also feel the GL (the other GL) is still mine to get. No was has started it and none of the civs I know have Lit.