When to attack as an early warmonger?

[Cookie Monster]

I think that is what Kuciwalker meant is his last post.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
'Ready'? Nothing happens!

"Nothing" only happens if all the tiles your cities are working are River Bonus Grasslands, in which case you may not need to rush at all, and should probably consider reloading less (edit: unless you're rushing really early, as in before your second city is founded, in which case I agree that a despotic GA would do next to nothing).

Consider that on Plains-heavy starting locations you nearly double your Shield and Commerce output. When playing, say, the Aztecs, you might just want to irrigate those Plains before mining the Bonus Grasslands.

It's true that a despotic is not something to rejoice about, but nonetheless you should derive a noticeable benefit from it. Sometimes it is all that's necessary to take you out of a tough position. And on the other hand, if an early rush will cement a lead for the rest of the game (which they so often do), a despotic GA is a fair price to pay.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Petrus2
Hmmm, that DOES raise a question. If you get a GA in despotism, will you actually GET the bonus shield/trade like bonus squares do, or is it lost to the 2-resource-per-square cap that usually applies?

No.

[Petrus2]

Dominae, you make some good points, and those ideas could notably change worker actions in the early game.

Kuciwalker, thanks for the clarification. Again, knowing exactly how the game implements some factors is half the battle right there!

I did decide to sidestep the issue completely (for now) by starting a game with the Japanese last night, a culture I'd never used. Didn't play as much as I'd like to (that whole 'family' thing intruding on my gaming ) but got 4-5 cities going, started building archers then chariots, and sent them off to spank the English. When I came calling they only had 3 cities, and handed one over for free to my threats. Then when the rest of my army arrived, I conquered another (they had since built a new 3rd city). At that point I stopped (bedtime), but it was nice to have gained a city, eliminated another, and pretty much clipped their feathers with very little effort. Such a change of pace for a builder!! I'll trim them back to just London, or maybe erase them, then it is on to the French who are my other neighbors. Little Joanie won't know what hit her

[conmcb25]

As Dom so eloquently discussed depending upon what you are working you do get a despotic GA bonus.

Thats where my "be ready for it" comes from. Knowing exactly what tiles you will get a bonus from and make sure you work them.

Despotic GA's aren't bad per se.

They just aren't optimal.

[Arrian]

[Note: this is a Monarch-level post. Different difficulty levels will call for an adjustment of many of the things I'm about to say.]

My suggestion for early warmongering is to stay away from powerful UU's, actually. You learn a lot by just using the stock units (warrior, archer, spear sword, horse & catapult).

Picking a militaristic civ is probably good, just since they get the barracks up quickly and get the promotion bonus. But it's certainly not necessary. I'll wage early warfare (limited) with India, which I'm sure people think of as a "builder" civ.

One advantage of learning how to be effective early on with just stock units is that you then do *not* have to worry about trying to maximize a despotic GA (which Dominae correctly notes is not a bad thing, just not a great thing).

There are two basic types of warfare in CivIII:

1) Harrassment/bullying
2) Conquest

Early on, I typically stick to #1. It doesn't require a large force, and if things go well (meaning the RNG isn't angry with me) I can build up my homeland while my harrassment force does their thing with little or no reinforcement. The things one can do early to harrass the AI:

1) Worker theft. Simple, walk up to the AI's borders, declare war and capture their worker. Run away. Make peace once they will talk to you.

2) Settler bopping. This is extremely effective. It typically requires either several warriors or 1-2 archers, and a bit 'o luck to be in the right spot. If you have an archer or two out hunting barbs, consider keeping them relatively near your closest neighbor's core, and wait for a settler team to come marching out. Then nail it, and get the 2 slaves. After that, you can just hang out and kill any lone AI units that come your way, and as soon as the AI will accept your envoy, make peace. You will usually be able to extort stuff from them (tech, gold, workers). Oh, that reminds me, if you can w/o getting a unit uselessly killed, try to enter the enemy's capital radius 1 turn before you call them up to make peace. If they had a worker in the area, it will run into the capital, and then you can grab it in the peace negotiations.

3) Take one city. This is halfway between Harrassment and Conquest. Sometimes the AI grabs a key resource that was between you and you feel you must have it (or they NOT have it. Romans with Iron next door, for instance). Take a city from them, though, and you will get more out of them in peace negotiations. The AI gets really scared of you once you start taking cities.

The second type of warfare requires more preparation (unless we're talking about a 3-unit rush on a capital). The best way to produce a largish contingent of quality troops is to utilize unit upgrades. The two in the ancient age are warrior to sword and chariot to horse. This is all about trading gold for shields. Shields are hard to come by, especially early in the game. Gold is easier to get, via doing 50-turn research on a tech. Warrior to sword costs 60 gold a pop, and chariot to horse is 30. Catapults are quite useful at reducing losses, although every catapult you build is one less chariot or two less warriors. For that reason, I tend to use cities that do not have barracks to build some cats. I'm not going to waste precious turns building a catapult (which gets no benifit from a barracks) in a city that could produce a veteran combat unit.

I hope you find this useful.

-Arrian

[conmcb25]

Excellent post Arrian!

And another example of why YOU are the guy I worry about the most in PtWDGII

I might also add I have some experience with forced despotic GA's.

And finally that is by far the most fun Im having in all my Demo Games.

[Arrian]

Heh. My participation in that game is pretty low, though, con. Demogames suck so much time and can really feel like work instead of play. Cort Haus is the main player for CoD. I comment, he plays. Sometimes one of the others pops up and comments too (Krill, for instance). But that's about it. So don't worry too much.

Besides, while I'm pretty good at smacking around the AI, you guys are a lot better than the AI. Hey, think about that! The AI is dumber than a pack of monkeys.

-Arrian

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by Arrian
you guys are a lot better than the AI. Hey, think about that! The AI is dumber than a pack of monkeys.

-Arrian

Somehow, Im not sure if that is supposed to make me feel better or not

I cant wait until its essentially over. Then we can open a thread over in the PtWDGII forum and swap "war stories".

[Solomwi]

One note on cash upgrades that Arrian didn't mention: it's the best shield/gold exchange ratio anywhere in the game. Pre-Economics, wealth is 4 shields to 1 gold. Cashrushing is 4 gold to 1 shield. Pre-Leo's, cash upgrades are 3 gold to 1 shield (2 to 1 in vanilla and PTW). Once Leo's is up, it becomes 1.5 gold per shield. In other words, it's a bargain unmatched anywhere else for conversion.

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by conmcb25

I cant wait until its essentially over. Then we can open a thread over in the PtWDGII forum and swap "war stories".

I second that. Somehow, I think full disclosure would bring quite a few laughs and interesting tales from all sides.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Arrian
Oh, that reminds me, if you can w/o getting a unit uselessly killed, try to enter the enemy's capital radius 1 turn before you call them up to make peace. If they had a worker in the area, it will run into the capital, and then you can grab it in the peace negotiations.

I believe that this will also contribute to better results from peace negotiations.