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  • #16
    My opinion is that there is no such thing as cheating unless you are directly or indirectly competing against someone else; i.e. a human--whether in a game, in terms of score, race, etc.

    For the purpose of learning the game and trying new strategies, reloading is key; exploring two diverging paths is only possible when exactly the same initial conditions exist before the branch. Reloading makes this possible. Playing through a whole game, making hundreds, if not thousands, of decisions is too coarse grained; large consequences of small decisions are not seen, and the sieve of human memory will let slip important lessons by the time the next game is begun.

    There are, however, some things that I consider foolish, that teach nothing, and are "cheap".

    1. Reloading to get better combat results. I mean come on, are you five years old? Probabilities are probabilities. Weird **** happens--must and will always happen--with a decent random number generator. Reloading in this case is akin to shouting "Do-over!" on the playground.

    2. Reloading to prevent the loss of galleys rushing for contact. This is very similar to reloading to get better combat results.

    3. Reloading to expand in a different direction, having realized that an alley is a dead end, there is a strategic resource or luxury there, or to prevent the AI from expanding into a strategically import area. There are just some decisions that you have to live with; revisiting them with more perfect knowledge won't teach you much.

    Those having been said, I do reload sometimes, to try out different attack strategies, weapons testing, maneuvering, etc. I sometimes experiment by reloading until before a war I just started and then playing it out by attacking someone else to assess the relative success of particular military campaigns, and to try to see what indicators are best to look at in order to forecast the relative success of a mission (in order to better plan future wars). I may try different unit mixes, more attack or more bombard, or naval infiltrations behind enemy lines. Or I might try different military alliances against an opponent to see which has any effect. Or I might try different tactical objective priorities; e.g. going after resources first.

    I also try out different victory conditions as well, although as of yet I have only secured Space Race and Histographic wins.

    Basically, I support the use of judicial reloading as a means to learn the game very quickly. This is for my personal benefit, and to make it more fun. In competition however, even for score, I would frown upon such activities.

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    • #17
      Ok what I do is this:

      I try to attack someone and if I fail ... I reaload

      I reaload if a city riots... I find that to be OK since I dont have the time to check all of my cities before next turn (which I could if I had the time...).

      I dont build much of a defense until I get attacked. I reload and try to build some troops really fast...

      After starting my new game I sometimes quit to see if I have a decent continent for myself or not...

      I am truly embarrased, but I cannot help it. When that spearman stops 3 of my cavalry I loose my cool.... and reload cursing as I do.

      C'mon folks, give me what I deserve. diablovision was close....

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      • #18
        Yes, you suck. It's a shame to have you in this forum.

        Though... if you are having fun and do not brag about how great your victories are, I see nothing wrong with that. The game is there to give you fun. If reloading does not spoil the fun for you, then it's just fine.

        Honestly... my better self tells me that sometimes, simply reloading like you do would save me a lot of time (as I wouldn't start "just one more game - to do better this time"). If only I wouldn't see the game as "tainted" then - somehow, my fun and feeling of accomplishment are gone if I cheat. But then... that's just my problem that I need to win "clean" to enjoy the victory.

        As diablovision said - as long as you do not compete against another human (MP, tourneys, or just bragging in the forum), do whatever you like.

        But you may wish to try being or letting yourself become the underdog from time to time. The fun is there, too, a lot of - sometimes even more than if you are clearly and easily winning... some of my most satisfying games were those where I managed to scratch my way out of a real bad situation. Or where I did not make it, but at least put up a great fight.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Daz
          Ok what I do is this:

          I try to attack someone and if I fail ... I reaload
          Why didn't you say it was such cowardly reloading?

          I reaload if a city riots... I find that to be OK since I dont have the time to check all of my cities before next turn (which I could if I had the time...).
          It only takes 15 seconds. What do you mean, don't have the time? It takes longer to freaking reload the game, moron.

          I dont build much of a defense until I get attacked. I reload and try to build some troops really fast...
          This is the worst use of reloading I've ever heard of. Not only is it cheating, it's pitiful gameplay, since your nearby cities have to divert whatever it is they're doing to defense.

          After starting my new game I sometimes quit to see if I have a decent continent for myself or not...
          You are a sad, pathetic little man.

          I am truly embarrased, but I cannot help it. When that spearman stops 3 of my cavalry I loose my cool.... and reload cursing as I do.
          Understandable... it can be frustrating at times.

          That better?
          Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

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          • #20
            When that spearman stops 3 of my gun toting cavalry, I fail to see how reloading IS cheating. Strange things have happened on battlefields, but I cant think of anything that strange, not even during the Zulu wars.
            "Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender B. Rodriguez

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            • #21
              I only reload when my tank loses to a spearman. So yes, I reload all the time.

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              • #22
                I never reload to change the outcome of a turn. The more I play, the more I deal with bad decisions I make, such as underestimating the number of troops I need for a certain attack. I will reload if I do something that was not my intent (send an entire stack the wrong way) - that does not seem like cheating at all.

                When I first started, I reloaded every time I would lose a single city or a battle went awry. Although I don’t do things like take cities I can’t hold anymore, overall, I am more nonchalant about bad outcomes in battle and diplomacy. I’ve figured out it is just a matter time before I turn it all around again.
                "Guess what? I got a fever! And the only prescription is ... more cow bell!"

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                • #23
                  I reload all the time when my superior unit loses to an inferior unit, as I said above.

                  I just cannot except it. I sometimes reload on goodie hut pops . I hate barbs

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                  • #24
                    I will reload a mis move: old machine, and it sometimes reads one key press as two, and I have sent numerous galleys to the depths with a miss type...

                    Other than that, not much.

                    I didnt realise people would reload their starts because they werent on a river, or couldnt see two food bonus resources! - The game can often be won in the early game, and if you have a better than average start.......

                    Way I see it, theres 8 civs, 6 with average starts, 1 good and 1 bad. If I restart to get the good start, I am loading the game in my favour already. Leaving an AI with a good start at least gives the chance of a late game challenge....


                    I dont win much though....

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                    • #25
                      Daz,

                      If you don't stop this cheating habit, you will never truly enjoy the game. Your posting of this problem is fact enough that you acknowledge it as a problem and limiting your fun. You know, deep in your heart, that you shouldn't reloading.

                      Deferred satisfaction is a problem of modern society. If you can't stop yourself from doing this, turn off autosave and don't save the game. Viola!

                      like I'm so innocent of this myself
                      Haven't been here for ages....

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Solomwi
                        It only takes 15 seconds. What do you mean, don't have the time? It takes longer to freaking reload the game, moron.
                        That's 15 seconds every turn, whereas you're not going to have cities riot every single turn. If you can go 20 turns without checking all your cities before a riot happens, then you're saving a lot of time in the long run.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Gibsie


                          That's 15 seconds every turn, whereas you're not going to have cities riot every single turn. If you can go 20 turns without checking all your cities before a riot happens, then you're saving a lot of time in the long run.
                          I'm trying to help him out here, Gibsie. Go back to OT.
                          Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

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                          • #28
                            well I finished my first game without reloading! (not including MP games obviously)

                            So I can now say I play the game without cheating. .

                            I think I have finally broken the bad habit I've had since civ2 days. I will no longer reload. This thread has shown me the error of my ways.

                            though I lost the game (see my no iron in game thread). I would have felt better had I won. But I had a really bad starting position and was lacking many strategic resources such as: iron, saltpeter, coal, oil, and aluminum. I was playing catch up the entire game. And none of these resources were near enough to conquer either.

                            One frustrating thing was I lost almost 10 battleships to destroyers! I really was pissed. Sure they were partially injured, but in most cases they were only 1 hp down. complete bull**** if you ask me. It was tough not reloading there . But I didn't.

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                            • #29
                              Haven't been here for ages....

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                              • #30
                                How about reloading to get a good starting spot? I do that alot. Is that cheating?
                                Once in a while / I'm standing here, doing something / And I think / What in the world am I doing here? / It's a big surprise -- Donald Rumsfield, interview with the New York Times, May 16, 2001

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