INC's Game Log - Please Advise

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by I'mNowCivilized

6) At what point is it wise to start wars with the AI? Even though you can win, is it still good to hold off?

I think you can ignore this issue until you are able to build your infrasture properly. This part of the game can be mastered later.

Once you have the other aspects down, you can decide on what you like to do with wars. It won't even matter then.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by I'mNowCivilized

8) What, on average, is the number of turns a wonder should be completed in?

9) Early in the game are wonders even worth going after, since later discoveries will render them obsolete anyway? I know you get the culture bonus, but is that worth it?

10) At what point do you stop building cities?

There is no average, wonders have varing cost in shielfs and come at varing stages of the game.

A 400 shields wonder is not as hard to build as 1000 shileds one. It could be build faster though, if the 400 was an early ancient one and the 1000 one was a modern one.

I consider how many shileds I am getting per turn and how many my opponents get. What the level is, as the discount can get to 50%. So if I am looking at 400 shields, but the AI cost is only 200, I need to be able to out produce them and have a head start.

Often the value is less as a possesion than it is a denial.

The last is tough. To a degree you may need to keep aquiring cities to get the dom or conquest. You mqay need them to make it easier to get to the next target (use of roads).

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I tend to use 6 workers with the city at size 6. The 6 workers can mine the tiles they will work and then join. Boom instant size 12 with all tiles improved. Now one or even two may have to be irrigated and many will only have 1 shield, but that will be way ahead of the AI at warlord. Chances are it will be building settlers still.

Question about this: I'm assuming you have to crank up the luxury % to have 12 working citizens in the early/mid game. So what do you do with the city after you've built the wonder? Gold and research are surely suffering during the long stretch of wonder building. Do you start cranking out workers to reduce the city to a more managable size?

[Solomwi]

Usually, when I'm able to do that, it's late enough that I have a temple, a few luxuries flowing in, and maybe even a marketplace in the city.

[Theseus]

Workers and (Combat) Settlers, yes. Also, you can change Entertainers to Specialists, which can be very productive.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by gunkulator


Question about this: I'm assuming you have to crank up the luxury % to have 12 working citizens in the early/mid game. So what do you do with the city after you've built the wonder? Gold and research are surely suffering during the long stretch of wonder building. Do you start cranking out workers to reduce the city to a more managable size?

I will leave it at max size in most cases. My main use is in Sid games and I will soon drop to zero research until the GL is obsolete. So having lux at 30% is not real painful.

I can also look to using a citizen or two as specialist at that point. Now my wonder city, will have some issues, but most of my other cities are now going to be very happy and can go in WLTKD.

Those smaller cities with what ever lux hooked up and 30-40% slider are delirious.

Often my course after getting philo/lit is to drop my research right then. I have not yet added workers. I add them at this time, IF the tiles are improved. This make take a few more turns and I will add the workers one or two at a time. Remember no one has even gotten philo at this time and when they do, they will not go on to Lit. They will probably go for Map. So I have many turns head start. My prebuild will be only a few turns.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Solomwi
Usually, when I'm able to do that, it's late enough that I have a temple, a few luxuries flowing in, and maybe even a marketplace in the city.

I am not sure what this is in reply to, but if it is to the post of the GL, I am not going to have currency, so no markets.

I should stipulate that the whole concept of racing for Phil/Lit and the GL is probaly not as viable at lower levels with larger maps.

This could still work, but huts can pop all kinds of tech and mess things up. In that kind of a game, markets could exist. You could still beat the AI to the GL with power of the size 12 city. Especially as you will likely have a decent prebuild and the AI will not have the bonus.

So like any startegy, a game situation may make it fool hardy.

[Dominae]

Fine answers so far, but maybe I can add some stuff:

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by I'mNowCivilized 1) Does the C-X-X-X-C/C-X-X-C rule take priority over a spot with a resource or luxury?

Not really; if you really need that resource or Luxury then you should forget any city placement rules. There's nothing inherently efficient about sticking to a particular pattern, be it 3-tile, OCP, ralphing, zenning, theseusing, ICSing, or whatever (actually, ring city placement is more efficient, but it's considered an exploit).

Of the above, I think 3-tile makes the most sense, because that's the distance at which all your cities will max out at size 12. But "3-tile" can mean a 4-tile or a 2-tile here and there, too.

I will almost always go out of my way to have a bonus Food resource within a city's non-expanded borders, regardless of placement. The only limiting factor being distance from the core; I'm not going to chase that Wheat 20+ tiles from my capital. Luxury resources are next important, followed by Strategic ones; you can usually wait for that Iron or Horses, but a Luxury resource you want ASAP.

2) Is there a preferred order of researching techs?

No, but you want to research techs that the AI will not (so that you can trade it to the AI civs for all their stuff). alexman's guide (linked to above) is great for this. Techs like Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial and even Iron Working seem important enough that you want to get them right away, but you can actually do without them until you're strong enough to trade for them. So you should be researching expensive stuff like Writing, Math, etc. Pottery is often a necessary first choice, because you need to build Granaries before you can reasonably expect to meet civs that know it.

3) Is there a preferred order of building city improvements?

Not really. In the early-game, you want to specialize cities. Some will build Granaries, others Barracks, and others Temples (if you feel you need the Culture). After that you want to look toward making your cities as productive as possible, which means Harbors and Aqueducts. Then its Libraries and Marketplaces. Again, this is a hard and fast rule and should not be followed to the letter.

Of course, happiness is a major factor in your city growth, so you also need to sprinkle Temples, Cathedrals and Marketplaces in there somewhere. Because there's no obvious solution to this problem, the game remains interesting.

4) Is it worth it to use forests and jungles for defense when settling cities?

No. Use bumpy terrain to your advantage when available, but do not sacrifice your empire's economic power for it. Every Jungle or Forest could be hiding a Bonus Grassland!

5) When you are building roads, should you plan on settling your cities along those roads so that the city is settled and connected at the same time?

This is ideal, but does not always work out in practice. Unless a new city access a Luxury or something, in which case you want it connected to your trade network ASAP, it's okay for a city to remain disconnected for up to 10 or so turns after it is founded. But again, it's ideal to have it connected right away.

6) At what point is it wise to start wars with the AI? Even though you can win, is it still good to hold off?

When you can do significant damage with minimal losses to your own forces. Notice that this does not mean you need to capture any cities; sometimes you can wreak havoc with just 3 Archers while the AI is expanding.

7) Is it ever advisable to land grab across oceans?

Yes, but I would not go out of my way to do it unless I was stuck on some small resource-less island. It's easier to conquer that land later than to rush to Galleys to claim it first (the latter can fail, the former rarely does if you plan well).

8) What, on average, is the number of turns a wonder should be completed in?

20-30, I suppose. But you should be pre-building your Wonders way before you get the techs that allow them. Pre-building means you build something comparably expensive (the Palace is especially good for this), then switch over to the Wonder when you're ready to build it. Prebuilds help you claim almost any Medieval (and later) Wonder you want, since the AI does not employ this tactic. Early prebuilds often last longer than 30 turns; some players prebuild right away with their second city!

9) Early in the game are wonders even worth going after, since later discoveries will render them obsolete anyway? I know you get the culture bonus, but is that worth it?

The Pyramids never go obsolete, and are worth it (at your difficulty level, at least).
The Great Lighthouse goes obsolete, but is often worth it on certain maps (Archipelagos).
The Great Library goes obsolete (and a good thing, too!), but is often worth it if you set it up right.
All the other ones you can easily do without.

10) At what point do you stop building cities?

On everything but Huge maps: when there's no more room to build them.

In other words, do what the AI does: expand horizontally, then vertically. There are exceptions (see: prebuilds), but this is a good general rule.

[Theseus]

What the heck is 'theseusing'?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Theseus
What the heck is 'theseusing'?

You tell me, you invented it!

[I'mNowCivilized]

This is frustrating, I try to develop the core and it still isn't working out right.

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by vmxa1


I am not sure what this is in reply to, but if it is to the post of the GL, I am not going to have currency, so no markets.

That wasn't speaking of the GL specifically, as I don't play on low or high enough levels for it to be a priority, only relaying my own experience with adding in to create a relatively early wonder city. Come to think of it, last time, I was doing it for Sun Tzu's, and had hit Math early because I had ivory nearby, so that was a mildly unique scenario.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by I'mNowCivilized
This is frustrating, I try to develop the core and it still isn't working out right.

What exactly isn't working?

That looks better. But those cities with the hills should have some grassland irrigated so they can work the hills.

Why you building WEALTH?

Need a new govt by that time, obviously, and the looks of those stacks in your cities if I'm seeing that right, you should be knocking on bismarks door.

You know, just to say 'hi'.

[Solomwi]

What do you mean by not working out right?

A couple of things I notice from this shot...

First, look at your empire in the minimap compared to the AI's. Land area looks roughly comparable, but you've got 17 cities, if I counted right, where the typical AI has half that many. You've given yourself a big advantage there.

Second, even though you seem to be playing a builderer game, Germany is ripe for the picking. You don't need musketeers and pikes in the southern end of your empire, as there's no threat. Fortify your northerrn border, then use knights to knock Bismarck onto that island. Seriously, a one city thin enemy means a very limited border to control once you start taking his cities. Start at the western end and roll his empire up city by city, or if you have enough knights, take it all in a single turn, maybe two. It may be useful as a buffer with the civ north of them (China?), but it looks like a juicy target to me.

There's one major issue, though. What are you doing still in despotism while researching electricity?!? I'd wager this is the cause of your problems, because other than troop placement, everything else looks okay. Get out of depotism ASAP (I suggest Republic), especially if you take my advice on attacking Germany. The first time he loses to one of your musketeers, you'll have your Golden Age, if you haven't already, and you want to avoid a despotic GA if possible. Really, anything would be better, just get out of despotism NOW!

Did I mention you should have a revolution and get out of despotism?

[Theseus]

I have the same reaction... You are DEFINITELY on the right track!!!

Time to post a save, as opposed to a screenshot, so that we can dig a bit deeper.

A coupla things jump out at me: Did you play Civ2? You have too many units in cities.; Wealth? Waste of time.; You are a builder, or maybe waiting for Tanks for aggression? Don't.

Damnit, man, I can feel it, you are just a step away!!