INC's Game Log - Please Advise

[Solomwi]

Theseus' post reminded me of something I forgot... the encouragement.

Seriously, your game looks better than a lot of my warlord games did, from a fundamentals standpoint, and you'll find that one change in your approach will solve several problems at once. At warlord, you'll be able to take this core and ultimately dominate, so as soon as you get a few of these kinks worked out, you'll be ready for Regent.

One more tip... I'd put a city at Paris-777 to eliminate that northern 1f1s coastal tile, but let the other two go, as you'd have to place a city at Paris-22 to get one of them (too crowded on the capital and Paris-222 will secure the coastal border) and the other is out of reach.

[vmxa1]

I did not read all the post above, but I am sure they had lots of good things to say. The spacing I know was mentioned, but to me worse than that is there are no roads to many of the cities.

You should have roads to the next city site most of the time. I can understand at times that is not going to be the case, but not half the time.

Paris is working on the GL with 53 more turns, why bother? If you need that much time, it is not worth it. Actually it should have already been built by 350BC.

This is done by two methods:

1) get the tech much sooner
2) have a city that is much bigger and tiles improved.

I am not even talking about a prebuild here. I get the GL on sid with no prebuild by 825BC to 350BC depending on a number of factors. 750bc is the norm. To do it you could have a number of workers that will be mining the tiles and then get added to the city once they finish their tile. So you have at least a size 10 and better a size 12 with 9 or more shield producing tiles. Maybe 3 or more doing 2, if you are lucky.

You just cannot build wonders with a size 3 city. I am presuminmg you are not using the GL as a prebuild here.

So to not be too cruel here, you really made almost no effort to get the empire pumping. I would want to see all tiles in the core cities at least roaded. No cities stuck way off in the distant, I do not even care if you had a resource there.

It will be of little use in a good game as you cannot defend it and it is not part of the network. With all that jungle, I want closer cities to make it so I do not need to clear quite as much. I want a ton of workers to get it cleared.

Do not worry about the AI grabbing land, it will not be able to hold it anyway.

[vmxa1]

Here is a scren from Mountain Sages game and look at the capitol and the next town.

[vmxa1]

Now you see Roxane and Groningen, Eindhoven, Arnhem, Gouda.
Roads on all worked tiles, mines on nearly all. Ignore the far off cities as this was a special case.

The point is the core is being build like it should. What you do after that is open. If you look at some of the games post by Dom/Nathan/Aeson/Alexman and so many other strong players, they have many things in common. They may not always agree on all the best moves, but they will have developed cores in short order.

If you master that, you can play any level. This is the time to get the hang of it.

[Theseus]

Yes, a key principle that we have been lack in stressing: DEVELOP THE CORE!!

Another strat, INC, that vmxa1 alludes to but did not really stress, and admittedly one that has only become common practice in the last year or so: When you are ready to go for a GW, and assuming you have a surfeit of Workers (which you should), join them all ('b') to the targeted 'great' city, making sure you have sufficient happiness for 10-12 pop, and get busy... done right, you should have a powerhouse capable of 2 to 3 times the shield production of the vast majority of other cities in the world at that time.

[vmxa1]

I don't bother with this much except at sid. They have about twice the production (effectively) for the same size city, so you need to be twice a productive to be equal.

So you will be facing an AI with size 4 to 6 most likely with its big production bonus. You need to have some way to offset it. This can only be done with a better production of tiles and a larger citizen work crew. Later you can do it again with use of plants and then factories, before the AI starts to use them (even if they beat you to the tech).

After that you need to force them into facism or something to cripple their production and have a prebuild to beat them to a wonder.

Then as T says, you have to be able to use all citizens, no entertainers. At Warlord this is not hard as you have the first three born content. So you need a couple of lux and a temple and the slider maybe.

I tend to use 6 workers with the city at size 6. The 6 workers can mine the tiles they will work and then join. Boom instant size 12 with all tiles improved. Now one or even two may have to be irrigated and many will only have 1 shield, but that will be way ahead of the AI at warlord. Chances are it will be building settlers still.

If you are first to Lit and have even just a 2 to 4 turn prebuild, that is plenty. I often will not have a decent prebuild at high levels as I do not have Mason or I am using the capitol.

I like to build my embassies soon after I start the GL so I can see if anyone has a jump on me. I don't want to end up eating 150 or more shields for a lib.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Krill
UnO, he is France, not the Vikings. The best builder civ in C3C. Why don't you and I both play out this save with our own (very different) strats? Would you like that?

You KIDDING me?
Joan is practically the warmonger pin-up girl! France Warmongers with the rest of em in the right hands.

If you want to demonstrate how opposing strats all lead to the same ultimate solution, or you want me to make the UnOrthOdOx guide to warmongering and Feudalism, sure I can play a game.

If you're wanting to show how builderering is ultimately the way to higher scores or quicker games (vs the AI), while being boring and requiring an anal grasp of every shield and grain, I concede that.

This is a builder start, you guys are better at that than I, that is all I was saying. When he gets a start that doesn't feature food boni or happy irrigatible lands, I'll happily show camping and archer/sword rushing.

[vmxa1]

INC I should have mentioned that the GL is not worth much at Warlord. I would not be using any add workers enmasse at this settting and especialy with all that jungle.

First you need to have contact with as many civs as possible, it takes two with knowledge of an unknown tech before you get it.

Second you should soon be getting most techs first. The optional techs you may skip and possibly learn via the GL. Even that is not a sure thing as most of them are after education.

You should find that you cannot wait for the AI to research techs and have to do them on your own.

[Solomwi]

Heh, reminds me somewhat of a game where I raced for the GL, only to find that I was stuck on an island with Xerxes. I think we each had 10-15 cities on it, so it was a pretty decent sized one, eggshaped with a big sea in the middle, but the fact remained that I wasn't discovering anybody else until after education. Suicide galleys had been absolutely no help. Can we say white elephant?

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
When he gets a start that doesn't feature food boni or happy irrigatible lands, I'll happily show camping and archer/sword rushing.

I for one would be an avid reader of a "Demigod Guide to Camping and Rushing", and the Strat Forum would be a far richer place for it

:GoForIt!:

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Solomwi
Heh, reminds me somewhat of a game where I raced for the GL, only to find that I was stuck on an island with Xerxes. I think we each had 10-15 cities on it, so it was a pretty decent sized one, eggshaped with a big sea in the middle, but the fact remained that I wasn't discovering anybody else until after education. Suicide galleys had been absolutely no help. Can we say white elephant?

That is one of the better times to build it actually.

Catapult you all caught up with the others (who should be ahead due to trading).

If I'm surrounded by people, there's better ways of acquiring their tech than building a wonder.



Haven't honestly tried demigod, just kinda stuck at Emperor since C3C for quick and easy little-thought needed games other than PBEMs. Guess it's about time I tried.

[Solomwi]

In this particular game, though, there was nobody to get the catapult effect from until after Education.

[I'mNowCivilized]

Ok, based on your comments I have a series of questions to ask. Then I am most likely going to start that game over.

1) Does the C-X-X-X-C/C-X-X-C rule take priority over a spot with a resource or luxury?

2) Is there a preferred order of researching techs?

3) Is there a preferred order of building city improvements?

4) Is it worth it to use forests and jungles for defense when settling cities?

5) When you are building roads, should you plan on settling your cities along those roads so that the city is settled and connected at the same time?

6) At what point is it wise to start wars with the AI? Even though you can win, is it still good to hold off?

7) Is it ever advisable to land grab across oceans?

8) What, on average, is the number of turns a wonder should be completed in?

9) Early in the game are wonders even worth going after, since later discoveries will render them obsolete anyway? I know you get the culture bonus, but is that worth it?

10) At what point do you stop building cities?

[Solomwi]

1. To an extent, yes. You're going to get that resource/lux at some point anyway, but by the same token, it's a factor to consider in deciding where to settle. So there's really no pat answer other than you still shouldn't let it take you wider than CxxxC. To try to clarify, if there's a patch of four wines right next to Carthage's border, but in striking distance if I send my settler now, I'll get it, but in deciding where to settle, I'll factor in being able to backfill the area.

2. There is no one preferred tech path. At some levels, you may want to grab whatever the AI won't, while at other levels, you can just forge ahead with whatever tech suits your needs best. If I'm playing the Iroquois, I may want to hold off HBR until I have 20 chariots to upgrade. If I'm playing Egypt, I may want to grab HBR quick to avoid triggering my GA too soon. Alexman wrote an excellent article on AI research preferences at CFC.

3. Again, not really. You don't want to put a granary in a desert city, since it won't be growing enough to take advantage of the effects. Likewise, you don't want an early barracks in a one shield producer, since it won't be building units, unless it's on a hostile frontier, for healing purposes. It also depends on whether you want to play as builderer or warmonger, or somewhere in between. It's a matter of deciding what your priorities are for that particular city, rather than finding a magic bullet build order.

4. Unless you mean the surrounding tiles, no. Setlling clears the square, eliminating the defense bonus. Hills may be worth it in some cases, but I find that to be a very small factor in CP decisions, since most of my wars are likely to be on foreign soil.

5. Your roads should always either lead somewhere or provide commerce for worked tiles, preferably both. So yes, you should build roads with an eye toward where you want to settle.

6. Anytime you can inflict more damage on him than he on you. I usually wait for a little provocation (like AI attitude going to cautious or the leaderhead bobbing the wrong way), but not always. This, again, depends more on playstyle and goals than anything, assuming you're strong enough to carry the war. If you're going for a UN victory, it's not going to be wise in a given situation where it would be wise if you're trying for a conquest victory. Generally, if my military advisor says I'm average or strong compared to an AI, I'll go to war as soon as logistics permit. If he says I'm weak compared to the AI, it may just be time to go to war and kill some of those units, bringing the AI down to my level.

6. Not until later in the game, after your home continent is settled. But by that time, the only land grab available overseas is through conquest, so if you mean peaceful settling, no.

8. Depends on the cost of the wonder, the age you're in and how much of a tech lead you have. No prebuild, I'd say 20-35 turns isn't a bad number. Anymore than that and you're probably not going to get it unless you have a healthy tech lead.

9. Some are worthwhile, like the Pyramids, because they don't expire. Some others, like Hanging Gardens and Colossus, expire later enough that they can be worthwhile. Generally, though, ancient wonders cost too much in terms of what else that city could be producing to be worthwhile. I prefer to let others build them for me to take. The culture bonus doesn't make it worthwhile unless you're going for a cultural victory, or trying to prevent flips.

10. When there's literally nowhere left to cram them in. Some prefer to keep a small empire, not bothering to found what will be non-producing cities. I want as many as I can get, for unit support and to keep the AI from settling the land, as well as potential future resources.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by I'mNowCivilized

4) Is it worth it to use forests and jungles for defense when settling cities?

No, my consideration for defensive is situational. IOW, if I am building a city at the edge of my land that will be a frontier city for awhile, I may take that hill. This is because it will be corrupt anyway, so I may as well get the bonus. I have had the AI bypass that new hill city as too tough. That gave me more time to get defenders there.

Also in a high level game, I may want that hill to use against barb uprisings. This are special cases. not common.