Making Ancient Cavalry upgrade to Cavarly?

[Last Conformist]

ACs are overpowered.

Crusaders clearly aren't.

[player1]

Or maybe the problem is that Cavalry is maybe overpowered too?

[Mad Bomber]

I don't see an upgrade of AC to cavalry as overpowering at all. I usually have a cavalry force at or above 100 before tanks roll along; the upgrade of 15 Ancient Cavalry doesn't make much difference to me. However, I should note that I have the TOZ and Knights Templar as small wonders so the AI has the same oppportunity to upgrade its units as well.

As for crusaders, I use them more for defensive improvements than as a combat unit.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
ACs are overpowered.

Crusaders clearly aren't.

Clearly they aren't.

[player1]

Also, the trick is that overpowrerness depdends from type of the map played.

At huge worlds hwne you have more then 100 Cavalries, 15 ACavs won't make a difference.

But at small map...

[TheArsenal]

Map and level dependent, really. Many do not play levels where the AI gets tons of bonuses. So even on a large map, at Monarch level, that’s enough cavalry to gobble up three or four cities in a blitzkrieg. It’s enough units to repel any stack an AI marches in your territory with.

My opinion is taking an already overpowered – free - unit and upgrading them to 15-18 cavalry is fairly overpowered. Particularly since this is a "dumb luck" (resource dependent) wonder.

[Solomwi]

The one factor keeping AC from being vastly overpowered on a huge map is the difficulty of massing them, since only one city produces them (much bigger issue with crusaders, due to movement). Upgrading them wipes this out, since it lets them remain useful after the production/movement phase is finished.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by TheArsenal
Map and level dependent, really. Many do not play levels where the AI gets tons of bonuses. So even on a large map, at Monarch level, that’s enough cavalry to gobble up three or four cities in a blitzkrieg. It’s enough units to repel any stack an AI marches in your territory with.

My opinion is taking an already overpowered – free - unit and upgrading them to 15-18 cavalry is fairly overpowered. Particularly since this is a "dumb luck" (resource dependent) wonder.

Cavalry cost 70 shields so if you had 15 units of AC to upgrade it would cost you 1050 shields to produce these same units from scratch. It costs 1800 gold to upgrade them (900 gold with Leo's), add in the 50 shields that you could get from disbanding the AC's and at best you would have a 100 shield gain with upgrading. Without Leo's it would actually be more cost efficient to disband the AC's and build the Cavalry from scratch.

[GePap]

You guys miss the point of these units-they are not regular units-they are specialty units you get after creating a great wonder and only you have them. If they are not much of a big deal, why waste the shields building the wonders in the first place? Specially the Knights templar, if you guys really think they aren't powerful? JUst build X number of knights, which have movement 2 and get to retreat and can be upgraded cheap?

[player1]

The question is not are they big deal.
That could be a separate discussion on itself.
(AC is obviously overpowred, while Crusader is no more powerful then an ok UUU)

The question is does upgrading them to normal (in no way special) modern unit is a big deal.


The thing are really hate, when I have in modern times bunch or old Cruisers garrisoned in cities and I have no heart to disband them. Just feels bad.

[MotownDennis]

I only have a few (if any) left by the time I go into the modern age. They have all kinds of uses: pillaging, counterattacking, stealing workers, sentrys, disbanding for shields, and I'm sure there's a use or two I'm forgetting.

No need for an upgrade on these bad boys. They were specifically designed to NOT upgrade. That wasn't an oversight.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by GePap
You guys miss the point of these units-they are not regular units-they are specialty units you get after creating a great wonder and only you have them. If they are not much of a big deal, why waste the shields building the wonders in the first place? Specially the Knights templar, if you guys really think they aren't powerful? JUst build X number of knights, which have movement 2 and get to retreat and can be upgraded cheap?

The question isn't wether the initial units that the wonder provides are a benefit, but wether UPGRADING the units provide a benefit. Considering that units have upkeep, the main decision once one gets Military Tradition and Replaceable parts is wether to keep the units or be replaced by modern units. Since it costs nearly as much to upgrade than to replace the unit, the overall benefit is minimal at best.

[player1]

yeah, I know I could get some use of obsolete Crusaders.
It just feels bad flavorwise to have them do battle alongside Guerilla.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber


The question isn't wether the initial units that the wonder provides are a benefit, but wether UPGRADING the units provide a benefit. Considering that units have upkeep, the main decision once one gets Military Tradition and Replaceable parts is wether to keep the units or be replaced by modern units. Since it costs nearly as much to upgrade than to replace the unit, the overall benefit is minimal at best.

No, the question is whether they should be upgradable-that is a slightly distinct issue than whether it is cost effective to do so.

And I say they should not be upgradeable, since that is not the point of these special units.

[player1]

On the other hand, it's not flavourwise to be able to upgarde your Med. Infantry to Guerilla and leave Crusaders forever.