Modifing pop-rush benefits

[player1]

Pop-rushing gives 20 shields per population point spent.
Also gives 1 unhappy face for 20 turns per popoulation point spent.

In ealry days of Civ3, it was slightly different.
First pop gave 40 shields and rest 20 shields.
(now it's fixed at 20 shields)

Currently pop-rushing is usually only useful for some sort of "quick-drafting" of Spearmen and Archers.
And in Industrail era it becomes pointless with Drafting around.


Idea:
What if benefits get increased to 30 shields per pop.
How would that affect balance?

Would it be too good with ability to rush Swordsmen and Horsemen?

But with possibility of rushing Musketmen for 2 pop or Knight for 3 pop could it actauly become more useful at later stages?

[Kloreep]

I find that in general, poprushing is simply not worth it in productive cities. I'm doubtful raising it to 30 shields would make it worth it in productive cities, as aside from the problem of getting your pop back, the unhappiness is a major problem. Where poprushing shines is in farther out cities during despotism. Due to their distance and despotism's crushing corruption, these aren't going to be productive until revolt and/or some courthouse building, so you don't need their pops high, which is where happiness becomes a problem anyway. These cities are good for poprushing a few items like temples or courthouses while they wait for a better form of government.

So, if you changed it up to 30 shields, the main change to my game is fronteir cities could spit out a few more things pre-revolt than before. I generally don't poprush in more productive cities which is where I build barracks.

[player1]

Anyone else?

I'm now inclined to increase the effect in my mod.
Only problem is a fear that maybe getting Swordsmen and Horsemen for 1 pop could be unbalaced.

[MattPilot]

i disabled it completely except during despo - I just couldn't take it that the AI commited suicide for a few worthless units that couldn't do shiat to stop me anyway

[Nor Me]

I'd be worried about finishing Granaries. In principle, If the city grows twice more before the time that you would have 30 shields without pop-rushing, then you wouldn't lose any food by rushing. This might not happen that often but there would be plenty of times when you'd only lose 10 food. The next build is likely to be a settler so even this could see a net gain eventually.

It would normally be worth raising the entertainment rate by 20% early on to keep everyone happy for expanding even slightly faster.

At 20 shiels, it's almost never worth doing this in practice but at 30, they're are plenty of situations where rushing early might make sense.

[Antrine]

Where pop rushing = unhappiness it is generally not worth it, I feel, however I did too disable in all but one government keeping it as a contrast. I like your idea of upping the value of pop rushing to 30 or even higher and will try it out with that one govt type. In an government the AI's won't get stuck in I hope, just in case they go for suicide!

[Whoha]

Pop rushing was horridly powerful when it did not really cost anything, of course thats only because the AI didn't use it.

Man I pop rushed so much out of so many cities one game that I had conquered 50 cities in the ancient era and gobs of horsemen.

I think this is one of those things that will go between too powerful and worthless.

[player1]

Well, I remember that many things did teakwed with pop-rushing since vanilla version.

Especially to squash all possibile exploits with it.


But, on the longer run, it become wortless when getting 40 shields from first pop was removed.

[DrSpike]

Despotism should suck. Raising the shields you receive higher again is a bad move IMO. At present rushing is effective in small amounts and in non-core cities, which is a nicely balanced setup.

[player1]

It's not all about Despotism.

There is a Feudalism and Communism around.

[DrSpike]

Fair enough. I'd recommend that any changes you consider do not apply to despotism though.

What is more, feudalism is irrelevant (unless you buff rushing so much just for feudalism that it becomes viable ) , and communism already rather powerful. I don't see why you'd want to buff that.

[player1]

Unfortunately,, there is just one value in editor, for all governments.


EDIT:
By the way, what aspect of pop-rushing you'll find unbalaning with 30 shields rush?

Is it ability to trade 1pop for 1 Swordsmen?

Somehow when I get calculations strait, that same city in order to recover needs 20 turns.

So in order to keep it happy, it means one rushing in 20 turns, or on average getting 1.5 shields in turn.

Of course, on the other hand it's a bit fron-loaded, since you get some benfits eary and then suffer later.

[DrSpike]

Hmm, you can't change it for each govt individually? That seems clumsy.

Regarding why I think 20 is more balanced than 30 it's not just the units issue you identified. The core cities and camps can produce units (and infrastructure) more efficiently than rushing for the most part, so I tend to use it sparingly for that purpose. The real benefit comes in building infrastructure in outlying cities.

30 shields is a big enough buff to make rushing powerful in the core (for granaries springs to mind) also, so rushing would become much more prevalent.

I prefer it the way it is now; it's more finely balanced whether to rush or not rush, particularly in the cities one would neither call core or outlying. Such decisions add to the game. I'd also add that (and in part maybe this is a bias) 30 shields buffs despotism as compared to rep/monarchy, and I don't think that should be the case. Pop rushing should be powerful enough to be useful in some situations (as it is) but not so powerful it becomes overused in the opening, and provides too large an incentive to stay in despotism. IMO 20 shields is pretty much spot on.

[player1]

Originally posted by DrSpike
30 shields is a big enough buff to make rushing powerful in the core (for granaries springs to mind) also, so rushing would become much more prevalent.

Hmm...

So by rushing granary, you get 2 unhappy pop for 40 turns and faster growth of the city (which won't be utilized due to added unhappines).

[Jaybe]

And now, for something totally different:
After having seen extensive abuse -- to their own detriment -- of the AI's pop-rushing in fascism/communism, I don't let them do it at all anymore. First I had them unable to rush at all, but now I am trying with cash-rushing.

The population rush losses are just too extreme in the industrial age. They should be based on number of people (not population point), and a population point should only be lost when accumulated to what a population point is at that pop level.

Other than that, pop-rushing by the AI is broken because the AI is (semi-) broken. I haven't gone back to PTW -- yet.