Scandanavia - For the glory of Odin!

[Krill]

OK, these are the first 43 turns:

1) Settler 1, worker road
2) Settler Apolyton, build warrior (5), Growth in 7, research pottery (12)
3)
4) Road complete, worker-> cattle
5) Worker irrigate
6)
7) Warrior built, moves 3. Build worker
8)
9) Irrigation complete, road. Pop 2, cow + forest worked 20% lux
10) worker complete, build settler. Worker -> dyes
11) W(orker) 2 road
12) W1 road complete, mine BG
13)
14)
15) pop 2, BG and Cow worked. +4fpt, +3spt, +7bpt.
16)
17)
18) Mine complete, W1 -> BG
19) Settler complete moves 22. Dyes roaded. Build worker
20) Off Topic founded, build Spear WF forest for 3 turns, then Grass. W2 deforest
21) English contacted.
22) Egypt find me, BW+CB+Masonry+8g = Alpha+WC,
23) Spear built, fortify, build warrior. Deforest complete, Road.
24) Worker3 built -> 4, build granary
25)
26)
27) W2: road complete, mine. W1: mine complete, ->3
28) W1 road, warrior built (explore), build warrior
29) W3 deforest complete, road.
30)
31) W1 road complete, mine.
32) W3 road complete, mine.
33) W2 mine complete, -> 9. Warrior complete->Apolyton, build warrior
34) W2 road
35)
36) warrior complete (explore), build warrior.
37) W2 road complete, mine. W1 and W2 mine complete. Granary complete, build settler.
38) W3 mine complete->7.
39) W3 deforest. Lux 10%
40) warrior complete build warrior, W1+2 mine complete, W1->2 W3->896
41) Settler built, moves 996 (takes 2 turns). W1 deforest, W2 road.
42)
43) W3 deforest complete, road. The University built 996 of ‘Poly Build Curragh. Warrior built, build barracks. Research Philo @13 turns @ 100%

I have tech parity with both known civs, and several exploring warriors. Another settler will be built next turn. I have an iron source 774 of OT, and will build a city near there to hook it up.

Could you strat forum veterans out the point out my flaws in the opening sequence, please. All advice (and critizisms) is appriciated.

[Krill]

UnO, If I had settled immediately, it would have been on a BG. The reason I road the original tile was that it was going to be used, but you do have a point. It would not have made much difference though. If you look I went Pottery->writing, I built a granary, and that helped me setup the start (see below)

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Goethe80


As for moving the settler 2 to avoid ocean square, my logic against that is that ocean squares in this particular start location won't come into play until after I'm able to grow the city past 12. There are enough squares around it, even with the 2 mountains to the NW.

What I was meaning is that by moving 1, as Krill did, the city will eventually have a coastal tile in it's radius it will never be able to really use since it can't build a harbor. I don't like this situation and try to avoid it.

I understand the logic behind moving, though I wouldn't on this start, I was just suggesting if you DID move, 2 would be better than 1 since you would then never have the aforementioned saltwater square that would be a 1 food waste of time in it's radius later.

As for the early curragh, I wouldn't say waste neccessarily. Bad luck with the barbs, but you would be suiciding quicker than otherwise had you not built it. Still probably not the 1st priority.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Krill
UnO, If I had settled, it woyld have been on a BG. The reason I road the original tile was that it was going to be used, but you do have a point. It would not have made much difference though. If you look I went POttery->writing, I built a granary

Well, yes, you have to move off bonus grass IMO.

I still would say 2 is a better location than 1.

I'm still learning this whole granary so damn early concept of you builderers, so I can see why you would do that.

[Krill]

But my way gives more space to Uni, which can use the coastal tile. My capital placement will cramp the western coastal cities, but that is a matter of preference - I like to keep them using the coast, bring in the cash. And I can build a lot of settlers with the granery, giving me flexability when Warmongers like you attack

[Solomwi]

You're right, BG is too powerful so early to settle on, especially when you can get your worker started on it without having to move. Moving 2, though, versus one give you three grass instead of two mountains and a single food coast. I like that tradeoff in favor of 2.

I've started trying to incorporate the ultra-early granary into my Warmongering efforts, and it seems to pay off quite well, as long as you're willing to put off the start of serious hostilities until the REX dies down. Of course, huge mpa with 8 civs puts the start off for you anyway most of the time.

[Krill]

Ok, I've analyzed the start, and I think that the early worker is a good idea in starts such as these. I know that others already know this, but I rarely play non-industrious civs. While curraghs may be a good idea, they will slow down expansion, and should only be used in shield rich starts. Early expansion should not becompromised the immediate exploration, leave that 'till later.

And the Pottery-> Writing-> Philo beeline is too easy with a commercial or seafaring civ and a good start

[vmxa1]

Goethe80 I just got around to reading your starts on this thread and I don't understand why you abandoned them. It looked to me that you were off to great starts.

I wonder if you are expecting to do things like it can be done at lower levels. I have often played emperor games with much worse starts (no Sun TZu, no Sistine) and still win.

Maybe you just need to play out longer to get used to not being ahead in tech and not being able to roll over the civs. If you see that it is not working, then you could go for a stronger military tactic and just grind them down like you have to at the highest levels.

I really thing you are in good shape.

[Goethe80]

vmxa1, thanks
The reason why I stopped the previous game is probably due to a shift in the way I play C3C nowadays. It used to be a much simpler shift towards winning, but now I'm more interested in playing at a higher efficiency. But in any event, I've got those games saved, and will probably play them out (I've got a 14 hour flight scheduled in early June.. so with the proliferation of power points in airplane seats.. heh)

Originally posted by vmxa1
Goethe80 I just got around to reading your starts on this thread and I don't understand why you abandoned them. It looked to me that you were off to great starts.

I wonder if you are expecting to do things like it can be done at lower levels. I have often played emperor games with much worse starts (no Sun TZu, no Sistine) and still win.

Maybe you just need to play out longer to get used to not being ahead in tech and not being able to roll over the civs. If you see that it is not working, then you could go for a stronger military tactic and just grind them down like you have to at the highest levels.

I really thing you are in good shape.

[Goethe80]

Ok, I'm feeling quite bad that someone else has played my start and I've not written anything about it!

So here's me at 1000BC

Brief history of whats happened.
Initial start -
1. moved Settler 2, founded city, irrigated then roaded cow, which allows the city to build warrior, settler w/o any delay while waiting for population growth.

2. Settler moves to form 2nd city 2,2 from city. worker starts working on bonus grassland. 1st city starts worker, then starts on granary. Send 2nd worker to road dyes.

3. Expand expand. City 3 designated Archer Farm. Gets warrior MP, barracks, then begins to build archers (plus 1 spearman thrown in for good measure). City 1, 3 and 4 have graneries and help to pump out settlers.

4. Manage to get Philosophy free-tech, pick Map. Capital city has temple and 2xMP and begins to build Pyramids as a pre-build for GL. I know it's risky as there's the possibilty that someone will complete some wonder and start a wonder cascade leaving me with a very expensive library. Am working on Literature

5. Am found by my 2 neighbours. English and Egyptians. Rounds of trade equals out all of our techs less Philosophy plus leaves me with some gold.

6. Get Literature, switch over from Pyramids. Also begin sending suicide galley to the west. Amazingly I survive 2 rounds out in the open ocean and meet India and Sumeria. They're pretty much on tech parity with myself, just with different techs. Trade all my techs less Literature. Am now only short of Currency, Code of Laws and Construction for the next era. I should get Currency before my GL, and hopefully the GL will yield at least one of these 2 techs.

Comments-
So far so good. Reasonable expansion so far. I seem to be plagued by jungles everywhere, but not to an extreme. Good amount of forests and bonus grassland has helped to keep production at good levels. In fact, I'm 2nd right now in mfg goods, which is nice. Only 1 lux, which is alright, but not brilliant. Would make life much easier if I can find at least 1 more lux somewhere. I also agree with Krill that having a seafaring / commercial civ does help alot with being able to squeeze in a tech before making the philosophy beeline.

[Goethe80]

Update @ 470BC

1. Finished GL
2. Expanded a little more. The east is pretty much blocked by the Egyptians now, so now moving NW and SW. The founding of Vadso yielded Code of Law (!) and Bodo yielded a warrior from goodie huts.
3. GL has yielded Monarchy, Republic and Constuction.
4. Exploring Galley (see minimap) has survived attacks by 3 barbarian galleys and is now elite
5. Barbarian uprising to the Nw. Finally the archers from Archer Farm have something to do. Moving them towards the Barbarians, and hopefully I'll get some of them to Elite or even a MGL.

Future plans
1. Complete expansion NW and SW
2. Gear up for Invention and UU. Build more Galleys for a coastal sweep.
3. Need to start pre-build for L.Workshop. (Probably once I have both Feudalism and Engineering)
4. Decide who to beat up on. The Egyptians or the English.
5. Gear up for switch to Monarchy. Need to get more cities to size 7 for army support.

[Dominae]

Loaded up Conquests for the first time in a while to try this start out.

I settled on the starting location, because IMO Curraghs (especially Seafaring ones) are worth the lost Bonus Grassland. Also the Food production works out nicely: the box reaches 12 Food at +3fpt just in time for the Worker to finish irrigation on the Cattle to provide +4fpt for the final 8.

I built a Curragh first, then 2 Workers (for a total of three), then proceeded to the Granary. Since the capital cannot support better than a 6-turn pump, I built a Barracks and went for 7-turn Archer/Settler (could do better, I'm not sure).

First Settler founded a city on the Dyes only two tiles from the capital, to access the Luxury (duh) but also to maximize use of the Cattle; this city is now set to produce Archers. Second Settler chased down the Wheat Flood Plains; this city is slowly being turned into a Worker-pump (requires Granary and Temple...I might throw some poprushing into there somewhere).

Research went (as usual) Pottery, Writing, Philosophy. I traded techs with England and Egypt at a loss just to get their Gold reserves to keep my tech rate up.

"The plan" is to Archer-rush either England or Egypt, then take care of the other through whatever means available (Horsemen maybe?), then fill the island with cities. After that, if the timing is right, I would of course use Berzerks to conquer some more. With the size of the home landmass, the Berzerk stage would not be that exciting (I imagine) since the game would be all but over. I'll play it through to then to see what happens.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Krill
All advice (abd critizisms) is appriciated.

Ok.

1) Settler 1, Worker road

Like I pointed out in my report above, I think it's best to found your capital immediately.

10) Worker complete, build Settler.

Why Settler before Granary?

19) Settler complete moves 22. Dyes roaded.

If you build your second city on the Dyes, there's no need to spend 9 Worker-turns hooking them up. Of course, since you moved your Settler on the first turn, this option is not open to you...

28) Warrior built (explore), build Warrior

I think Archers are the better option for the Vikings on Emperor level and below. Use Curraghs to contact everyone and get an idea of the land form, and Archers to slowly explore inland and rush your nearest neighbor. On Demigod Warriors are a bit more necessary.

W2 road complete, mine. W1 mine complete, join W2.

I'm not a big fan of joining Workers to produce Settlers in the early-game; 10 Shields wasted in the first 60 turns is not trivial. You'll have a lot of cities, but they will be working unimproved tiles.

---

Hope this is helpful.

[Krill]

1) Actually Dominae, the last point is not that clear. I meant that W2 worked the same tile as W1, not that I joined it to the city.

I'll edit the post to make it clearer.

Why Settler before Granary?

2) I built the settler before the granary since I was not sure about the amount of barbs, and did not want to go with out a military for long. The settler built enough warriors for MP and exploration while it grew. If you compare you minimap to mine, I can see where my next settlers are going, but you have to risk the settlers on that. The side effect is that you may either place some cities badly, or waste time exploring, and not producing any thing.

I do understand that while I don't have the opurtunity to archer rush anybody, but I can quickly chnage production to swordsmen for self defense, or archers for upgrade.

If you build your second city on the Dyes, there's no need to spend 9 Worker-turns hooking them up. Of course, since you moved your Settler on the first turn, this option is not open to you...

True, so I'll take note of that.

I think Archers are the better option for the Vikings on Emperor level and below. Use Curraghs to contact everyone and get an idea of the land form, and Archers to slowly explore inland and rush your nearest neighbor. On Demigod Warriors are a bit more necessary.

See above. Another point is that I play a longer game, hoping to beat the AI to tanks by ~30 turns. This is long term, so I do indulge in bullying the AI, but only if I nead the space or a resource/lux.

Hope this is helpful.

It is, so thank you

[Aqualung71]

I've also downloaded this game and will fire it up for a try in a day or so when I've got some more time.