What's the best way to build up coastal towns?

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Theseus
Um, this presumes a Temple, Colosseum, or Library has been built, yes?

I think you can assume a Temple has been built. A Libary wasn't part of the scenario, but I may quite possibly build one first anyway.

But then even with a Temple, on Emperor and only 2 luxuries, you can't get to size 6 without using the luxury slider and/or entertainers.

[vmxa1]

Ok here it is:

"1. Would your answer change if some of your buildings were half price?
2. Would your answer chance if the towns in questions did not have a Temple either?"


So you can do it both ways.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Several contributors stated that they would build a Temple first, or a Granary first, or both. I found in mid-game AU501 that the food was coming in so fast that the town would be Size 6 before the granary was complete, anyway. (Corrupt towns, which was NOT the original premise.)

So I'll ask THAT question: how do you develop corrupt coastal towns? If there's a *lot* of food I let them grow to size 6 before deploying specialists. If there is only a basic +2fpt I'm inclined to grow to 2 or 3 and then build a harbor...but then what? Am I wasting my time building more than a temple...or even building that?

[ducki]

For Corrupt Coastal towns, I think we end up in another big "it depends".
On government/rushing type
On bank account and cashflow(dependent on rush type)
On level of corruptness

I'd be inclined to throw a courthouse in there somewhere, depending on how corrupt the town is, whether I can afford to rush it with cash or if I can grow it enough to poprush it. Then, I think, you end up in the original situation again, balancing population, food, happiness, income, and production.

But definitely, unless "completely" corrupt, I think a courthouse would enter into the queue, at least for me.

[Theseus]

My question re Temples and whatnot was not about happiness... I'm just pointing out that I'd like to have cultural expansion before building a Harbor.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by ducki
For Corrupt Coastal towns, I think we end up in another big "it depends".

Well, one of us had to say it...

On bank account and cashflow(dependent on rush type)

As per my "Seven Cities" thread, I never seem to have enough cash(flow) to rush more than one improvement in such a city. As per Theseus, that one improvement is usually a Temple, both to push my borders (often to reach a whale or something) and as a cultural vaccination against flipping.

But definitely, unless "completely" corrupt, I think a courthouse would enter into the queue, at least for me.

The darned courthouses are *so* expensive and seem to yield so little. We're back to figuring out that break-even point above which a courthouse is worthwhile, and below which the city just stinks.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
So I'll ask THAT question: how do you develop corrupt coastal towns?

Depends on the level of corruption. If totally corrupt (say >80%), then it doesn't really matter too much what you do. Bearing in mind the objective is to create commerce and/or production, totally corrupt towns will do neither and furthermore, luxury slider usage won't help them either. Increasing pop above 6 in these towns costs commerce, both for the infrastructure upkeep and the rush cost, while only providing the possible benefit (depending on government type) of unit support.

If corruption is less than 80%, a courthouse would probably be the best thing to go with early on (and temple for border expansion).

[ducki]

The darned courthouses are *so* expensive and seem to yield so little. We're back to figuring out that break-even point above which a courthouse is worthwhile, and below which the city just stinks.

As long as the courthouse will net you 2 gpt, I'd say it's worth it in the long run.
1 to pay for itself and 1 to pay off it's rush cost over X turns, then it's profit.
Even better if it nets you a shield - courthouses also do that, don't they? Or did I pick the wrong day to quit sniffing glue?

Of course, all that is in a vacuum and ignores the impact on your short-term balance sheet. Too bad you're not in Feudalism/Despotism and could poprush part of it.

It also doesn't offer a way to know for sure if the courthouse will help or not.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by ducki

As long as the courthouse will net you 2 gpt, I'd say it's worth it in the long run.
1 to pay for itself and 1 to pay off it's rush cost over X turns, then it's profit.
Even better if it nets you a shield - courthouses also do that, don't they? Or did I pick the wrong day to quit sniffing glue?

Of course, all that is in a vacuum and ignores the impact on your short-term balance sheet. Too bad you're not in Feudalism/Despotism and could poprush part of it.

It also doesn't offer a way to know for sure if the courthouse will help or not.

Heh, I haven't seen Airplane in quite a while.

Yes, courthouses effect shield waste as well as commerce corruption.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
We're back to figuring out that break-even point above which a courthouse is worthwhile, and below which the city just stinks.

Corruption has changed somewhat in C3C. Basically, a Courthouse reduces the adjusted distance by 50% for the distance corruption calculation, and increases the adjusted OCN by 25% for the rank corruption calculation.

It's going to be pretty hard under any circumstances to get meaningful production out of cities with a rank higher than the adjusted OCN, even ignoring distance corruption which is likely to be high under such circumstances (unless your FP is nearby).

However, the maximum corruption limit is 90% for all cities, but 80% if you have a Courthouse. So from this perspective you could argue a Courthouse is always effective.

Bottom line is - a Courthouse can be quite effective in reducing distance corruption and somewhat less effective in reducing rank corruption, as long as you haven't exceeded your adjusted OCN. The best way to increase your adjusted OCN is to build your FP (anywhere).

I've assumed here that you're not in Communism, so have ignored the SPHQ.

(Alexman, please correct me if I've misinterpreted any of this)

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard

So I'll ask THAT question: how do you develop corrupt coastal towns?

Tipically for me: harbor/temple, courthouse, marketplace, aqueduct, bank, commercial dock. Period.
In between, some military units (mostly as pre-builds).

The most important feature for me is a harbour in case of war. The rest is mainly decoration.

PS: more tips on your thread.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Thanks to all. Next question: what's the easiest way to estimate total corruption for a given city (assuming that it is still relatively small)?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
Next question: what's the easiest way to estimate total corruption for a given city (assuming that it is still relatively small)?

Not that answer you want to hear, but: experience.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Thriller

If totally corrupt (say >80%), then it doesn't really matter too much what you do. Bearing in mind the objective is to create commerce and/or production, totally corrupt towns will do neither and furthermore, luxury slider usage won't help them either. Increasing pop above 6 in these towns costs commerce, both for the infrastructure upkeep and the rush cost, while only providing the possible benefit (depending on government type) of unit support.

It can still be well worth your while to grow the pop in such towns, particularly if there is any bonus food source or if you're agricultural - provided you can handle some micromanagement. By getting a city above size 6, the food box expands to 40 food bushels. Even without any food bonuses, you'll always have 2 extra food from the city tile -- the two extra food can support one taxman bringing in two extra uncorrupted gold per turn. You can even let the food box grow to almost full, and then assign two taxmen while you let the food box dwindle -- this is especially helpful with an Ag civ since the food deficit is only 1 per turn, allowing 30+ turns of 4 commerce per turn before dropping back to 2 commerce per turn to prevent starvation. A totally corrupted coastal town of size 7 can be a very profitable little burg, even after investing in a needed inprovement or two. (Remember that specialists need no happiness modifiers, so a size 7 city with a 40-bushel food box that regularly uses one or two specialists will need little, if any, happiness improvements). The possession of Adam Smith's will make this approach even more attractive, since it substantially eliminates any upkeep costs -- invest up front in a harbor and an aqueduct, a market if absolutely necssary, and a temple or library to expand the borders (the truly economically anal can sell the temple or library after expansion to eliminate the 1 gpt upkeep, limiting the ongoing operational expenses to 1 gpt for the aqueduct).

Bonus food means more specialists. And the on-again / off-again starvation cycle can be very handy during those turns where making 20 scientists (several from each corrupted coastal city) can allow you to lower the science slider but still research a tech in the same timeframe -- often saving lots of gold.

The power of specialists is so juiced up in C3C that they often deserve a tactic of their own instead of trying to reduce corruption and extract value (other than food) from tiles.

Catt

[vmxa1]

Also a size 7 gives extra unit support for some governments.