Demigod - play-a-long strategy

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Doc
Also whoever discounted the first game because of lack of iron needs to look again. It's a ludicrously easy setup, and a perfect introduction to demigod for newer players. It's much much easier than the demi2 game, I finished by UN for comparison in 1230AD. For a large map that's quite fast.

Maybe you should try conquering the world.

UN victory is the easiest, and you can achieve it pretty darn fast if you know how to keep the tech pace up.

I'm not saying your game is not impressive...maybe you achieved a Diplomatic victory 30 or more turns before any of us could. But it's only impressive within the Diplomatic victory framework, which to me is not really that impressive. From your comments I think you agree.

So, again, I'm wondering why you did not go a more challening/interesting route. Not enough playtime, perhaps? Personally I'm going for Domination, and at the early-Industrial era it feels like I'm on the hundreth hour...


Dominae

[DrSpike]

Vmxa: My apologies, when you've been civving as long as I have it's impossible to think of them as anything other than trade arrows, even if they are called commerce now.

Dominae: I am, I think, just as proficient at war as at peace (which might well be not at all ), but mostly I find it boring, prefering Diplo/Spaceship with the challenge being to research as fast as possible. It's not as easy as you think to finish in 1230AD. I return your challenge by inviting you to try.

I don't think domination would be hard........I had 3 sources with iron to trade. I have played lots of such games before and they often fail to keep me interested. I don't think Civ3 makes a good wargame. Each to their own.

[Dominae]

I feel that a well-played Domination or Conquest victory is a lot more difficult than Diplomatic. I'm not saying this map is hard, I'm saying one victory type is more difficult to perfect.

But I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one.

I would take up your 1230AD challenge, but I hate playing the same map twice (especially when it takes so long the first time!).


Dominae

[DrSpike]

Fair enough. I don't think either victory type is inherently easier though. It's more that conquest/domination games rarely appeal to me any more. To a great extent the skill is in picking your window for war, and that isn't that difficult after a few tries. I guess now though I'll have to do an aggressive game soon or you'll all think I am a one trick pony who is also a wuss.

The settings also have to be right for a Conquest/domination game. Pangaea is so often a churning snoozeathon, and islands are a snoozeathon because they take so damn long to win no matter how well you play. If it's a happy medium I'm probably persuadable to go kick some stupid AI butt.

I think that's my real gripe........Early landing games are my favourite since they minimise the role of the AI, and make it about the player fighting the game.

[Dominae]

Might as well post a report on this game (demi2), since I'll probably have forgotten all the important details after I'm done with AU502.

A little preamble/summary.

I knew I wanted to win either by Conquest or Domination in this game; Japan holds a special place in my warmongering heart. I also wanted this game to be "different" somehow, not because I'm so bored with Demigod that I need to challenge myself (far from it!), but because I wanted to explore a different strategy.

Here's the strategy I chose: keep the tech pace as slow as possible. Here's how I implemented this strategy:

1. Avoid doing any research of my own.
2. Keep the AI civs at war with each other.
3. Refrain from trading Luxuries unless necessary.

The third point simply forces the AI to use more of its resources to keep its populace happy, usually in the form of Entertainers. Every Laborer that an AI must transform into an Entertainer means a much less efficient empire, and therefore slower tech rate.

The second point is pretty standard; we all know that a civ in Monarchy/Communism simply does not research as fast as one in Republic/Democracy. Those civs that stubbornly remain in representative goverments need to pool more and more resources into handling WW. Without access to many Luxuries (see above), this again means taking Laborers off the land.

The first point is a little more interesting. Here's a summary of what it involves:

a. Research Pottery, Alphabet, Writing and Literature, and no more.
b. Never build Libraries or Universities.
c. Use the Great Library to keep up.
d. Steal techs after Astronomy.

Essentially I went 100% Taxes for the entire game. I'm not claiming that this is a new strategy; way back in the earlier versions of stock Civ3 this was the most efficient thing to do due to weird tech devaluation. But to the extent that I've applied this strategy here, it's certainly new to me.

I'm really big on the Steal Tech ability these days. I'm not really sure what the success rate on "Safely" is, but it's high enough that it becomes cost-effective to steal techs instead of buying them outright from the AI (and, of course, researching them yourself). Between paying the AI 2500 Gold for a tech, or stealing the tech for 2000 Gold at a 75%+ success rate, I'll gladly steal the tech. It keeps the tech pace down by keeping money out of the AIs' pockets (it also prevents them from upgrading...a nice side effect), and me rich. With the numerous civs present on a Large map, and semi-exclusive trading circles formed around military alliances, it's possible to trade most stolen techs for a couple more.

Does all this work? Pretty well, I think. In the early Industrial era (when I stopped playing), I have relative tech parity with the rest of the world, only behind Economics and Free Artistry (no need for them). No Libraries; four techs researched on my own.

Clearly this "no research" strategy can be made to work, but it's still not clear to me if it's better, equivalent to a more standard style of play. On the one hand, doing your own research speeds up the tech pace and thus presumably leads to faster victories. Then again, I could probably finish this game (by Domination) in ~1400AD, which is about on par with what I usually do on Demigod (non-Pangea). From another perspective, it's seems to me like the "no research" strategy puts the game into your control much faster, because the only thing that saves the AI once you go on the offensive is better units (mainly, Nationalism). And you can go on the offensive much faster if you save all your Commerce for upgrades. One could argue that speeding up the tech pace helps the human player reach Military Tradition or Steam Power faster, which invariably is better for the human than the AI. I suppose that makes sense in the general case, but on this map (with an isolated start)? I would like to see someone post a full report of such a warmonger-research approach, for comparison's sake.

Now that I've taken up so much of your time with the preamble, I'll proceed to the (shorter) report.

[Dominae]

Unlike many of you, I moved the Settler NE onto the Horses during my first turn. There's almost never a time when you want to disconnect Horses, even as Japan (to save 10 Shields off Cavalry?). And I want to explore the possibility of exploring (ha!) with Chariots instead of Warriors, which only Japan can do from the first turn.

Upon founding Kyoto in 3950BC, I saw a Goody Hut waiting to be popped once her borders expanded. Fearing Barbs, I decided to switch my first build to a Temple instead of a Chariot (the Chariot would be complete a turn or two before border expansion, opening up the possibility of Barbs). I was still looking for some way to make this game "different" (the "no research" strat only occurred to me later), and Temple-Chariot as a build queue is certainly different. An ultra-early Temple is also great for Culture, ensuring your capital appears in the Top 5 cities for millenia to come.

Oh, I went Pottery 100%. Without a bonus Food in sight, it seemed pretty important.

After a bit of exploration, I suspected I was stuck alone on an island; I had still not contacted any other civ by 2630BC, and could already see the coast in most directions. Thus I figured I needed to get Curraghs in the water as soon as possible. It was around this time that I started thinking the Great Library might be a good idea.

In the screenshot below, I've just completed a Granary in Kyoto. "The plan" at this point was to create a pump using the two Game, and a coastal Curragh-producer on the western coast. These two cities would then support Kyoto's effort to build the Great Library. I ended up placing the coastal city on the Incense (a bad spot) in order to access the Incense ASAP and thus keep the research up.

[Dominae]

Things went according to the plan outlined above. Research toward Literature was much slower than I thought, and without a sizeable prebuild item (Granary was the most expensive thing I could build at that point) Kyoto could not really get started on the Great Library. So, in a pretty awkward phase of the game, she built Reg. Chariots and Settlers/Workers, waiting to start on something more ambitious. I ended up building a Barracks there anyway when I got tired of waiting (Reg. units are an eyesore!).

I'm certain this was not horribly efficient, but I was hoping to make up for that with my 4-turn pump. Osaka finally reached full 4-turn pump status in 1375BC. It took a while because I had to build a Temple there first to access the second Game and get up to +5fpt.

Tokyo, my third city, built five Curraghs before proceeding to a Barracks.

In the screenshot below, I've just contacted three civs: French, Mayans and Sumerians (I was pretty happy about my Curragh surviving the treacherous crossing to France). Each civ was, of course, further than me in tech, but none had discovered Writing yet. I was not able to trade for Masonry to start a prebuild (the Pyramids were completed very early, probably with a Great Leader, so I would certainly have lost many Shields - phew!).

All those early Temples and Barracks sure slowed down my tech pace. Problem is, there was nothing much else to build (Reg. Chariots?!). If I were to do it again I probably would have started my military buildup a bit later, focusing on Settlers and Workers exclusively until Literature.

[Dominae]

The 1000 or so years saw my Curraghs circle the globe and contact all civs but the Incans and Dutch, who were hiding where my Curraghs could not reach.

I got back in the game in terms of tech when I discovered Writing. Here's what I've got in my notes regarding this:

Writing for Bronze Working, Masonry, Mysticism and 152 Gold (French)
Writing and 82 Gold for Polytheism (Greeks)
Polytheism for Map Making and 21 Gold (Mongols)
Map Making for Iron Working and 213 Gold (Greeks)
Map Making for Horseback Riding, Mathematics and 7 Gold (French)
Map Making for Construction (French)

That was a fun turn. As with most games where you're planning to build the Great Library, it ends up being pretty darn efficient to continue trading for techs you would normally get through the Great Library anyway. The ones that I reall could not wait for were Construction and Map Making, as I wanted to start on Harbors and Aqueducts as soon as possible.

With all the Gold from these and other trades, I bought Embassies with all civs 530AD, the turning after I switched to Monarchy. Republic was still a ways off, and as a Religious civ that planned to have a lot of units hanging around, it seemed like a good idea.

Once I started trading, Kyoto could finally begin on prebuild. By that time all relevant tiles around her had been improved, and Workers were joined immediately until size 12. With three MPs, a Luxury and a Temple, I did not have to keep the Lux slider too high, as I recall (the screenshot below says only 10%, woo-hoo!).

The screenshot below is from the turn before the Great Library's completion in 230BC. As you can see, the Mayans snuck a city onto my island, which was pretty annoying but not fatal to my cause. I was hoping for it to flip, but it never did. I'll discuss city placement and function below.

[Dominae]

I got the following techs from the Great Library:

Currency
Republic
Monotheism
Feudalism
Engineering
Invention
Theology
Gunpowder
Education

I had fully embarked upon the "no research" route at this point, steering clear of Libraries and putting all my resources into building units and generating Gold.

An interesting thing then happened: Sumeria completely pulled ahead in the tech race. I'm not talking about a tech or two: by the time I hit Education (when the Vikings finally traded for it from Sumeria), the Sumerians were the only ones to have Gunpowder, Music Theory, Astronomy, Navigation and Banking! A remember a while ago DaveMcW saying that when he builds the Great Library he gifts all techs he knows to other civs, so that one cannot pull ahead and ruin his day. At the time I did not understand what he meant...now I do!

Sumeria's impressive tech lead painted a big fat target on itself. I was prebuilding Leo's and just knew I was going to conquer somebody with Samurai, I simply had not decided yet who. The French had the most land area available and would undoubtedly prove to be the strongest late-game competitor. The Mayans were close by and, with the help of the Temple of Artemis, were becoming a major cultural threat. The Vikings were small but technologically advanced, and would provide and nice base of operations for campaigns against Sumeria and Mongolia. But in the end, Sumeria made the most sense: I wanted to keep the tech rate low, and I Sumeria was a major obstacle to this, since other civs would invariably research stuff Sumeria did not have, pushing everyone ahead but me. I also thought I could extort techs from Sumeria before its permanent demise, but this ended up never happening.

SO, I built Leonardo's Workshop in 350AD. A few turns later I connected Iron and upgraded 40 Horsemen to Samurai (with a bunch more Horsemen still waiting). Ten turns after that, I was in position to assault Sumeria (more on that below).

Here's a screenshot of my empire just after the completion of Leo's. As you can see, the placement is pretty tight. This was necessary to get as many Horsemen and Galleys built as possible. Each of my military-producing cities (almost all of them) were optimized to reach 10spt and stop there. Here's a brief breakdown of city function:

Worker-pumps: Osaka, Nagoya
Wonder-producers: Kyoto (later, Tokyo and Kagoshima)
Galley-producers: Izumo, Satsuma, Matsuyama
Horsemen-producers: all other core cities

As you can see from the screenshot, after the mass upgrade, I took a break from producing military units to turn all my cities into cash cows. This involved liberal use of Gold for rushes, and joining of Workers to reach size 12. The only city that could not reach max size due to tile shortage was Nara. Notice the city just SW of Edo (I forget the name): it was put there as a pure military camp. I ended up never disbanding it, however (and probably never would until game's end...too useful).

[Dominae]

Due a pretty big mistake on my part, I only had 13 Galleys available to take Samurai from Japan to their targets in Sumeria. 26 Sumurai were enough, but with double that number (which I had), I could have proceeded to the Mongols immediately. Ah well.

France was getting pretty big at this point, although remained technologically inferior (no idea why). I really wanted to get Joan into a fight so that I would not have to worry about a KAI too soon. Luckily, she declared war on Sumeria of all civs in 450AD, 7 turns before my own declaration. With France taken care of, it was pretty cheap to bribe most of the relevant civs to ally with me against Sumeria:

520AD: Declare war on Sumerians
Alliance versus Sumerians with Mongols for 80 Gold
Alliance versus Sumerians with Mayans for Incense
Alliance versus Sumerians with Vikings for World Map and 197 Gold

I had signed ROPs with all civs but Sumeria at this point to keep them happy with me. This served me well as I was able to get into position to attack Sumeria through Viking lands, shaving a few turns off the process by using their Roads.

Oh, I forgot to mention that another reason I decided that the Sumerians were to be my target is that they did not have access to Horses, Iron or Gunpowder. Resource scarcity sure reared its ugly in this game! Another way of looking at it is that I capitalized on this by attacking Sumeria before Mongolia could do the same and become a KAI. That's the way of looking at it that keeps the game fun, and I like to have fun so that's the way I looked at it.

The screenshot below is from the very turn I declared war on Sumeria. That stack of Samurai is only 26 strong, but there's an equal number on the way. I never needed those, though, as Samurai swords cut through almost anything like butter, especially Enkidus and Longbowmen. 13 turns later mainland Sumeria was mine.

[Dominae]

(Wow, this report is getting pretty long.)

I got nice and lucky with Great Leaders:

580AD, versus Sumerians
630AD, Sumerians
720AD, Greeks
840AD, Sumerians (the turn they "went away forever")
870AD, Vikings
880AD, Vikings
930AD, Mongols
950AD, Mongols
1020AD, Mongols

All but two of these became Armies (pure Samurai or pure Cavalry). One rushed the Forbidden Palace in Ur, one the Pentagon. It's the first time I've ever completed the Pentagon before Military Tradition and the Military Academy.

With the end of my Golden Age in 720AD, I start a revolution in order to become a Republic. I did not want to do so before attacking Sumeria, as I did not have enough Luxuries yet, and felt that prolonged campaigns against the Sumerians, Vikings and Mongols would undermine the potency of my GA.

Throughout my GA I built Samurai instead of Horsemen in my military cities, since most of them were above 14spt and building 30-Shield units would be wasteful. This was probably a mistake, since with the great Leo's engine going a few wasted Shields is nothing.

Once in Republic, I begin to trade for Luxuries after this:

Steal Banking from Mongols "Safely" for ~2200 Gold
Astronomy for Banking and 117 Gold (Mayans)
Chemistry for Astronomy and 96 Gold (French)

Navigation did not come much later, and with access to all 8 Luxs I felt I could take on the Vikings then the Mongols. The Vikings, with 3 good cities in their entire empire, fell pretty fast. I was waiting for Steam Power to take on the Mongols in a RR-Cavalry blitz, but Temujin knew something was up and declared war preemptively in 910AD (allying with the Greeks, who hated me since day one).

Below is a screenshot of the first turn of the war against the Mongols. I'm bracing myself for whatever they throw at me; their army is "Average" to mine of 60+ Cavalry and 6 Armies.

[Dominae]

The Mongols did not actualy put up much of a fight, probably because I allied with whichever civ was supplying them with Saltpeter. In the middle of the war the Greeks were annoying enough to reach the Industrial era and get Nationalism for free, teaching it to the Mongols.

I guess this is where I have to say that Armies in C3C are pretty darn silly. I must have taken down all of Mongolia with my 3 Cavalry and 2 Samurai Armies alone. The AI almost never attacks Armies, so all you need to do is park a couple next to their cities. The next turn, you use their 4 movement points (if Cavalry) Army to destroy their main defenders (rarely more than 4), then mop up any Longbowmen or whatever with your regular units.

Mongolia fell, and I got myself into tech parity in 1000AD with the following sequence:

Steal Nationalism from French "Safely" for 3028 Gold
Nationalism for Democracy and Medicine (Vikings)
Nationalism for Steam Power, Music Theory and 13gpt (Mayans)

With Industrialization I saw that I had most of the world's sources of Coal within my borders, although none were connected yet, nor within my borders! I hurried to build a Colony. In preparation for Railroads, all my core cities (apart from the capital) popped out a Worker every turn until they reached sizes 6-7 (should have been 7, but I forgot about the reduced upkeep). This was easy to do because all of these cities were, as you recall, producing 10spt and were using coastal tiles for added Commerce, so they could keep up a rate of one Worker every turn.

That's when I decided to stop playing, with the game well in hand. At this point it's a "simple" matter of conquering everyone but France to achieve a Domination victory.

The question I pose to you, dear reader, is: what's the quickest way to win this?

Doc claimed that peaceful games are more difficult that warmonger games, because they require better game knowledge. I disagreed. So I turn my game at this point over to the community, asking what's the best way to seal this thing up. There are many decisions to be made at this point in the game, and I would like to know whether they're trivial or not. Certainly one path is better than the others...which is it? What would you do?

I'll include the save below for you guys to check out, but for now, some stats (the minimap is, of course, most revealing):

Date: 1090AD
Major Civs: French, Mayans, Greeks
Minor Civs: Egyptians, Dutch Incans

Government: Republic
Luxuries: 6
Resources: All, Saltpeter and Iron disconnectable anytime

Wonders: All relevant, apart from Smith's (big mistake there)

Workers: 102 (almost finished Railroads)
Cavalry: 61
Galleons: 23
Armies: 6 (mostly Cavalry, a couple of Samurai)

Libraries: 2

[Dominae]

I would really appreciate your thoughts on what I should do from this point on. Help Dominae win as quickly as possible!

Just hit Enter to end the current turn. You'll see a Mongol city flip, but not to worry, you should be able to eradicate the Mongols forever during the next turn.

Thanks for reading.

Edit: In case you're wondering, I failed my Steal Tech attempt only once (out of four), at the cost of ~3000 Gold.

[vmxa1]

I see you violated your no luxs one time, understandably. My question to you is what method(s) did you use to keep the AI at war with each other to the extent that you suceeded at it.

Was it mainly tech for alliances? Any MPP deals as triggers? Did you use gold, which sort of counters the low research attempt.

I ask, because I find it hard to stir up wars bewteen the AI above emperor. Mostly because they have the tech already and I am loathed to give up luxs (but will).

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Dominae
Doc claimed that peaceful games are more difficult that warmonger games, because they require better game knowledge. I disagreed. So I turn my game at this point over to the community, asking what's the best way to seal this thing up. There are many decisions to be made at this point in the game, and I would like to know whether they're trivial or not. Certainly one path is better than the others...which is it? What would you do?

Dominae I read your report with interest, but this annoys me. For the second time in as many days you have put words into my mouth concerning something we are discussing on these boards. In fact it was you who dismissed peaceful wins as 'less challenging' and I said:

Originally posted by me

Fair enough. I don't think either victory type is inherently easier though. It's more that conquest/domination games rarely appeal to me any more.

This style of arguing (attacking a position I have never taken) is, frankly, beneath you.