Emporer Ancient Era - How do you balance needs?

[planetfall]

Status Update

Interesting. From this game and your comments it looks like I didn't have to worry too much about balance of defense and expansion in ancient game.

This is a weird game. One civ, Rome, was placed on Northern tundra coast. They could not expand to size 3, thus no settlers. I have never seen such a poor location before. This explains why they had 4-6 units marching across the land early. They tried an attack on Aztecs and failed. They never tried anything else but building spearman.

I don't know if others experience the same evaluation of Emperor, but it feels all wrong. With previous jumps in difficulty level, the game stayed interesting. Here the game is losing a lot of interest as it is becoming more like SimCity. Granted I may have goofed and stayed in builder mode all the way thru the Ancient Era. Now I am at the beginning of the Industrial Era and it is still very frustrating.

Currently there are 3 main civs and 3 minsicule ones. Iroquois are the biggest with their occupation of the largest continent after destroying the Babs. I have 2/3rd of a Y shaped continent with Mayans holding the vertical bar of the Y. Since I had 2 legs and they only had 1, I thought I could use cavs and cannons vs their musketmen.

Yeah, but 1 turn before I was ready to give it a try, Mayans A-- upgraded 88 musketmen to riflemen, and B-- entered a MPP with Iroquois. I didn't like the
MPP but it was the mass upgrade that was a killer. I had 12 cannons I thought I could upgrade to art's and still make a go of it. Opps, 130/unit. Not enough cash. I am nick and tuck with Iroquis in techs and can't afford to do this until I get my factories built.

Boy, production is a real problem with this level. I used 6 Forts, but miscalculated and had to rebuild 2 of them as I had missed a couple of tiles.

Anyway, the issue for me now is not surviving the Ancient Era. It is more how do you keep this level of game interesting and not just another Simcity type of game where you hope to eek out a score win.


I figure I can eliminate Mayans fairly soon. I am just waiting for Electronics before trying to trigger anything. For Mayans my plan is to offer poor deals, resind MPP with Mayan, make MPP with Iroquois- not because they will help but to stop the trade between Iroquois and Maya, build a few fortresses, etc. If all else fails, declare and go for it. My problem is I am in Democracy and Iroquois is Fascist. Maya is demo also, but they have Fascism tech and I don't. This should keep me busy until the end of the Industrial Era.

But then what, I will have the smaller of 2 continents. It will be me and Iroquois. They are ahead in almost all stats on F11 screen. Every once in a while I bump into lead for a turn or two, and then they recover. I have 0 navy. It is a long distance to other continent, something like 4 turns with transports, when they arrive. Iroquois has 50 frigates now. Granted not show stopper but annoying. They are about 800 ahead of me in score. I'll play it out but my guess is it will come down to another nuclear stalemate game which I will lose as I can't gain on score and only winnable options for this game are: 1. score, or 2. conquest. The other options are turned off.


== PF

[Krill]

post the latest save that you have, and maybe somebody else can help you. Since I have never been that far into an emperor game, any advice of mine is null and void.

[planetfall]

Yeah, I know it is all too wordy. The obvious big mistake I made was not helping Babylon enough so Iroquois would not have all of the big continent.

I will see if I can post screen shots later. I was running late this am.

PF

[vmxa1]

I don't know what is meant by SimCity. I never played the game.
One of the things that can happen at Emp is that a civ on a large land mass will get very big and become a serious problem.

If you are on a decent size land mass you need to take it all during the ancient and middle ages. You can then either go after the KAI or go for a space shot while fending them off.

The danger in C3C is leathal bombardment. The AI will start sending bombers over that can destory things.

It is hard to outscore the AI at the point you are. This is because they have more land and probably had more of the ancient and middle age wonders.

If you got to parity in land and then got the industrial wonders and all modern wonders, you could pull ahead.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I don't know what is meant by SimCity. I never played the game.

It's like terrain management on steroids. You build:
--homes, businesses
-- roads, highways, airports
-- electric lines, water lines
-- terrain: up/down 3 levels
--landmarks
You have to keep sims happy or they leave and you lose score.

You play for score not versus anyone else.

One of the things that can happen at Emp is that a civ on a large land mass will get very big and become a serious problem.

Amen, amen, amen.

If you are on a decent size land mass you need to take it all during the ancient and middle ages. You can then either go after the KAI or go for a space shot while fending them off.

Yeah that was initial plan but Mayas got Leonard and with every tech jump would mass upgrade. Ugh. My production was hindered by wars while they just went for more and more.

The danger in C3C is leathal bombardment. The AI will start sending bombers over that can destory things.

Unless they get way way more than at monarch level, not worried. What with new FLAK, should be even. Remember that thread that said 4 FLAK is an ideal number. This AI strategy should work in my favor as FLAK will cut heavily into Bomber cost effectiveness.

There is a poorly written new book out, "Fox on the Rhine", which preports to say what would happen to B17's if the ME262 was given the go ahead. We don't have ME262's here, but we can make it too expensive for AI to win via bombers only.

It is hard to outscore the AI at the point you are. This is because they have more land and probably had more of the ancient and middle age wonders.

If you got to parity in land and then got the industrial wonders and all modern wonders, you could pull ahead.

Iroqouis just got most land. After I get Mayans, I should get most land. Actually one of the few bright spots is I am ahead in MFG. The only hope I can see is to get Hoovers. Oh, and maybe I can MM better than AI. I will play it out, but right now it seems very very close.

I did get Smith, but not Leonard, Bach, SzuTzu, Copericuus, Magellan, or Shakespeare. Mayans have Leonard, so that is a bright spot.


PF

[vmxa1]

Ok, I miss understood. I thought you had said the other contient was much bigger than yours.

[planetfall]

Well it's hard to tell. My continent is fully populated. The other is much like a fat upside W missing one arm. It has not yet been fully populated. I was #1 in land until Iroquois took last 2 Bab cities. Maya has about 9 cities, but they are medium density. Iroquois newly conquered land is widely populated. Maybe I was wrong and the two continents are about the same size. I will try to get a screen shot for you tomorrow.

PF

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by planetfall

Unless they get way way more than at monarch level, not worried. What with new FLAK, should be even. Remember that thread that said 4 FLAK is an ideal number. This AI strategy should work in my favor as FLAK will cut heavily into Bomber cost effectiveness.

There is a poorly written new book out, "Fox on the Rhine", which preports to say what would happen to B17's if the ME262 was given the go ahead. We don't have ME262's here, but we can make it too expensive for AI to win via bombers only.

It all depends on the map. What I have seen is that is you have one contient and the KAI has the other, it will be hard to cover all of the targets.

They will have a number of sites that can reach some of your cities and they will have carriers. You can shoot down planes from time to time and maybe hunt down the carries. I tend to have a small navy so that is harder for me to pull off. I am rethinking my naval policies for non pangea maps now.

Anyway, I found flak to be very ineffective and moblile sams to be only fair. The KAI will likely run a dozen bombers at a site. That will be very painful, until you slow them down.

The level has some impact as the AI gets a cost factor that yields a 20% boost. In Monarch it is 10%. The other thing is that at monarch, you do not see KAI's as readily.

I am only guessing, but I suspect it is due to the human being able to bring the game under control sooner at monarch.
At levels above that the AI has ttime enough and bonus enough to run over its neighbors and get a tech lead that lets it hold off the human for a time.

This was less so in PTW, but the increase in research cost and other factors has made it more common now.

So in short, yes the level of Emp will probably mean bombardment will be much harsher than you are use to seeing.

Now like the EPA, you mileage may vary and I may be the only one who sees it this way.

[vmxa1]

I just noticed your avatar. Did you change it recently? Looks good.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by vmxa1


It all depends on the map. What I have seen is that is you have one contient and the KAI has the other, it will be hard to cover all of the targets.

They will have a number of sites that can reach some of your cities and they will have carriers. You can shoot down planes from time to time and maybe hunt down the carries. I tend to have a small navy so that is harder for me to pull off. I am rethinking my naval policies for non pangea maps now.

Anyway, I found flak to be very ineffective and moblile sams to be only fair. The KAI will likely run a dozen bombers at a site. That will be very painful, until you slow them down.

Remember here the key is to stack them. You need at least 3 or 4, no more. Any more are wasted. With RR's you don't need that many to put the hurt on carrier bombers.

This was less so in PTW, but the increase in research cost and other factors has made it more common now.

So in short, yes the level of Emp will probably mean bombardment will be much harsher than you are use to seeing.

Now like the EPA, you mileage may vary and I may be the only one who sees it this way.

In PTW AI bombardment was a non factor. I usually have extremely small navy until DDay. Then my normal build is:
-- airports in all cities

Coast cities
~~~~~~~~~~~
-- DS, Cruisers
-- BS
-- Carriers

I keep building until I have at least par with best AI or until I have at least one task force. Typical task force is
4 DS {8 if AI has known subs}
3 BS
3 Cruisers
4 Carriers
7 transports

Inland cities
~~~~~~~~~~~~
-- one bomber/airport
-- one fighter/3 bombers
-- 4 bombers/carrier fleet
-- about 8 reserve bombers

AI bombers are small threat. They can only put 4 on a carrier and rarely have massed carriers. My coastal bombers love to take on their carriers.

For my fleet, one carrier is just fighters on AS. AI bomber lethal bombardment is balanced by AA of most sea units.

I don't care if AI has more ships, I only need more power at the DDay spot. Once DDay gets started they lose interest in the naval/air war on my continent.

Again, this works perfectly below Emperor. Since this is my first real Emperor game, I will have to see how it goes, but don't expect too much trouble as long as I can stay close in techs and production ability.

Oh, did I mention, I just got infantry. I'm about 2 techs ahead. ;-)

== PF

PS Have not updated Avatar in ages. Same old one. Some day I was thinking of finishing it and putting a world horizon in the foreground. The idea is the sweaping planets are falling into the target world.

[vmxa1]

If you have a decent navy then it will not be a big problem.

Bombardment in PTW was useless for the AI and is was not lethal, it is in C3C.

RR will not be much use unless you have only one or two target cities. This is because the AI knows what you have and will hit where they ain't if it can reach them. If it cannot reach multiple targets, you are good to go. If you have enough batteries to deal with the attacks, you are good to go.

What has happened to me is two large contients are close to each other. This provides scores of targets. I would need several hundreds of flak or mobile sams to protect them all at the same time. Many of these cities where captured and quite corrupt, so I could not afford to get a sam in all of the them, only a few.

When the AI hits one city , I moved extra units to it. The AI hit a defferent city. I did not want to invade as it was late in the game and I was going to launch. I had to nuke them a few times to bring them to the peace table.

Anyway it sounds like you have the navy to deal with it. I may want to alter my play to get a larger navy in time for games that are going to get to flight.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by vmxa1
If you have a decent navy then it will not be a big problem.

Since I often end up in later battles, Navy is required for cross continent safe invasions.

Bombardment in PTW was useless for the AI and is was not lethal, it is in C3C.

Pull out that old memory of my games. Initially I had a modded game where you were surprised Bombers had lethal bombardment. This is was pre-PTW. ;-) Old stuff for me, even though it is new for many.

RR will not be much use unless you have only one or two target cities. This is because the AI knows what you have and will hit where they ain't if it can reach them. If it cannot reach multiple targets, you are good to go. If you have enough batteries to deal with the attacks, you are good to go.

What has happened to me is two large contients are close to each other. This provides scores of targets. I would need several hundreds of flak or mobile sams to protect them all at the same time. Many of these cities where captured and quite corrupt, so I could not afford to get a sam in all of the them, only a few.

When the AI hits one city , I moved extra units to it. The AI hit a defferent city. I did not want to invade as it was late in the game and I was going to launch. I had to nuke them a few times to bring them to the peace table.

Anyway it sounds like you have the navy to deal with it. I may want to alter my play to get a larger navy in time for games that are going to get to flight.

Additional comments:

1. Navies are expenive. Now I get commercial docks before air.
2. Navies take time to build. The build order that works is
a. navy
b. air, coast defense
c. air, carrier fleet
d. army
3. I have only used 70% water, so have not had lands close to each other, might not work with closer lands. Usual water gap transport takes 2 to 5 turns, depending on land mass.
4. If continents are that close together, you need SAMS. One SAM will attack all incoming bombers until it is eliminated.
5. RR's help for carrier defense as you can move faster than carriers.
6. Nukes are much much more effective if you have at least one unit to move into the nuked city.

got to run later,

pf

[planetfall]

Beginning of Middle Ages

Here is what world looked like at beginning of middle ages.

Purple in middle is Iroquois.
Dark Blue in middle is Babylon.
Red Spot is one city Rome.
Medium blue with cities is Germany.
Yellow is Zulu.
Pink is Inca.
Orange is Portugal.
Cyan is Maya.

I had hoped to get further in Ancient Era but production and growth was such a problem for me I just could not do it.

PF

[planetfall]

Current View

Ok, here is current view.

Maya just finished sacrificing 80 units in 2 stacks by advancing straight north to the city hub surrounded by 7 cities. Middle of the expansion past the choke point. Most of them were junk, but the three cities their side of the choke point seemed like cherry picks with only one ancient cav in each city.

Current game situation:

Techs-- just got motorized trans. After getting Hoover I was about 2.5 techs ahead in primary tree, but no Fascism, espionage, Free Art, or Navigation. Lead is disappearing slowly. Now about 1.8 techs ahead of Iroquois.

Continent-- Obviously 10 Mayan cities on south of continent will have to go.

Scoring-- about 200 points behind Iroquois and gaining about 4 points per turn. I think this is about turn 32#, but not sure. AD16##.

Iroquois have RR'ed mostof the purple continent and are finishing putting in coal plants. MMP with Iroquois worked in 1. knocking them out of democracy into fascism and in removing one luxury trade. They have the most population and about 200 infantry. Germany has just less than 50 infantry. Guess who's weak ;-)

Not sure what strategy to use for rest of game
Predecision point is to use army to secure rest of continent. But then what?

My analysis--
1. two continents are about 2-3 transport turns apart, so Navy will be important and bombers can not strike from one contient to the other.
Advantage-- even.
2. two big islands to south are not needed but if occupied by Iroquois, then Germany will be vulnerable to land based bomber attacks and will have a long front to protect.
Advantage-- Iroquois
3. Iroquois have 40 cities, Germany has 65 cities. Germany city spacing is mixed: a few OpenCityPlacement and most overlapping. Iroquois is primary OCP.
Advantage-- Iroquois. {They are #1 in production on F11 screen}
4. Ease of expansion. Iroquois have a 2 turn trip to big islands and Germany has a one turn trip to big islands.
Advantage-- Germany.
5. Score-- Germany is slowing gaining on leader Iroquois. It is unclear if this pace can continue. But if it can, then game will end with slight Germany lead.
Advantage--Germany
6. Techs-- Germany has slight lead in key techs, but without Fascism will have to drop down to Commie or Monarchy for WWIII.
Advantage--even.

Summary: game is very close to tie, neither Iroquois nor Germany has outstanding lead.

Ok, so what to do about that?

Incremental Growth Option
This strategy would take the big islands after the rest of the continent primarily to deny Iroquois a land based site for bombing runs. After taking big islands, DDay could come from A_ north mini islands, B_ West Germany, or C_ western big island.

Advantages:
-- easy to do
Disadvantages
-- longer time at war. WW will definitely kick in and thus need to either switch to commie or research Fascism and use Fascism. I don't trust getting Fascism from Mayans.
-- more time for Iroquois to make unbreakable continent

Bypass Big Islands Option
This would focus on distracting AI and trying to knock down it's productivity. Create a DDay force and go in from West Germany or mini Islands.

Advantages:
-- takes the battle to Iroquois faster
Disadvantages:
-- may not have any lead after get Fascism tech
-- RR'ed 200 infantry could be just a bit of a problem.
-- Iroquois would probably make MPP/invade Maya and I would have
a two front war.


Attached is current game image.

So, what strategy would you use?

== PF

[UnOrthOdOx]

Do you have a preferred method of winning?

You could hole up and try for a spaceship at this point.

Personally, I would head south and take all of the homeland, not neccessarily the other islands, then take the fight to the Iriquois with a massive navy, Carriers, and Bombers, perhaps even Marines to punch a hole directly into a city to land and move out tanks that turn.

Don't underestimate Communism.

If prepared for, it can be quite good for war, especially given your size.

Trick is to try to have courts everywhere and Police stations where possible before the switch.

Don't be afraid of the pop rush, USE it. Conquer a city, pop-rush a temple, draft some defenders, and move on to the next one.