Adding religions to the game

[Willem]

Originally posted by Azeem
Willem, it would be more proper to give the Mongols "Vajrayana Buddhism" - the Buddhism of Tibet. Mongols don't follow Confucianism, but Buddhism penetrated Mongolia.

Confucianism really isn't a religion (it's kind of strange that so many people think it counts as one), but a way of life and a philosophy. Daoism and Pure Land Mahayana Buddhism are actual "religions" in China.

Yes, I've already decided to restrict Confucianism to China, it never really spread anywhere else. And that allows me to isolate it from the rest of the Asian Buddhists. And yes I am aware it's a philosophy, not a religion. I'm going to treat like a minority church except that the Chinese will build schools instead of a religious buildings. They will have the same effect though, plus increase research by 50%. That will make the Chinese quite strong culturally and scientifically.

Thanks for the info about the Mongols though, I wasn't sure what they practised. I was going to add them to the Totemist group, but I guess I should change them to Buddhism as well. I'm not going to get to much into subdividing Buddhism however, there are to many variations and I don't know enough about the religion to get into that.

However, I would like something for Korea in order to isolate it as a civ. I've added Shinto to Japan so I can be civ specific with them, and I need something similar for Korea. I could just give them a Korean tech, but I'd rather find some other way if I can. Any info you can share would be appreciated.

[Kull]

Originally posted by Willem

Unfortunately there's no way of setting a minimum city size for building an improvement. I wish there were, I find it silly that I can build a University etc. in a city with only 3 citizens.

Forgetting for a moment that it's historically "normal" for large universities to be sited in small towns (at least in the modern era), there are a few ways to skin this cat.

1) Give universities a knowledge improvement pre-req (or two) such as library. By the time you've built the required buildings, it's likely that the cities will have progressed to a reasonable size. This is pretty much the "built-in" Civ3 solution to the problem.

2) You could make it a requirement that "X" number of libraries have to be constructed before the first university is built. Similar to the above solution, but somewhat more likely that larger cities will build them.

3) Use one of the "city-size" improvements (such as Aqueduct or Sewer System) as a pre-req:
- Aqueduct: This has the interesting side effect that you'll never be able to build a university in a lake or river sited city. Perhaps an option if you want to cripple research for certain civs.
- Sewer System: Having this improvement as a pre-req is a complete guarantee that universities are built only in the very largest cities.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Kull


Forgetting for a moment that it's historically "normal" for large universities to be sited in small towns (at least in the modern era), there are a few ways to skin this cat.

The problem is that in my mod I've increased the food requirement for citizens to 3, so on the Plains at least, I end up with alot of cities that only have a population of three. That strikes me as far to small in order to have a University or Cathedral.

2) You could make it a requirement that "X" number of libraries have to be constructed before the first university is built. Similar to the above solution, but somewhat more likely that larger cities will build them.

That dosn't solve th problem though, it just postones it. Once you build those 5 Libraries, Universitys can be built anywhere, regardless of size.

3) Use one of the "city-size" improvements (such as Aqueduct or Sewer System) as a pre-req:
- Aqueduct: This has the interesting side effect that you'll never be able to build a university in a lake or river sited city. Perhaps an option if you want to cripple research for certain civs.

I'm doing that now with Factories actually, and I've also set it so that Aqueducts can only be built in cities that have access to water. Once Steampower is researched, Aqueducts become obsolete and cities require a Pipeline in order to grow. But I find that I can still build Aqueducts in my size three cities, as long as they have a water source nearby.

- Sewer System: Having this improvement as a pre-req is a complete guarantee that universities are built only in the very largest cities.

That would be to late for Universities IMO. Might be an option for Research Labs though.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Confuscianism should be renamed Neo-Confuscianism...that is the actual religious version, the other is just a philosophy and it did spread to Japan, in fact the upper class was almost exclusively Neo-Confuscian in philosophy, or atleast as much as one can be in a pluralistic society, or maybe Ch'in/Zen Budhism would be more apropriate to reprsent this. Later periods of China also had stronger Sunni Islamic ties as well. In fact Zheng He, easily the most well known explorer/diplomat for China was a Chinese Muslim.

The lower class however was more of a mix between the traditional shintoistic values and various chinese budhism philopsophies (it is important to not that their Budhism ideas are filtered through chinese interpretation and intergration).

Shinotism however wasn't developed in Japan. It originates in rural areas of China and is still (unoffically) practiced in some of the very remotes areas there.

[Plotinus]

Gosh, I'm getting confused now. How does the minority religions thing work? Is it like a Small Wonder, that you build once - so, perhaps, France is Catholic, but an appearance of the Revelation resource allows them to build the Huguenot Small Wonder in the relevant city?

I see no problem with having a cathedral in a very small city. St Paul's Cathedral was founded when London consisted of about three Saxon traders and a very thin cat. Even today, there are teeny little towns with a sodding huge cathedral glowering over everything, like Ely.

I'd be interested to see what Wonders etc. you develop for Shintoism. The religion may not have developed in Japan but it's certainly the country's official religion, inasmuch as it has one - officially, something like 95% of all Japanese practise Shinto, although I believe they got this figure by including anyone who lives within a couple of kilometres of a Shinto shrine! In practice, of course, most Japanese have no religion. Today it is a very secular country, more so, probably, than most western ones.

I believe that Korea has been basically Buddhist and Confucian in the past, but today Christianity is very big there - more so than in any other Asian country, although it's not been there for nearly as long as in China.

You can have a look at Calvin's "Institutes" at http://www.smartlink.net/~douglas/calvin/ Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers. He believed essentially the same thing as Luther - whom he never met - but his work was much more systematic and clearly set forth, and had slightly different emphases. The work of Calvin, including not only his writing but also his transformation of Geneva into a Protestant theocracy and the setting up of his famous Academy, led to the creation of a new Protestant Church, the Reformed or Calvinist Church, which existed in addition to the Lutheran Church. The Reformed Church was ultimately more successful than the Lutheran. Lutheranism was confined mainly to the German-speaking areas of Europe and Norway, but Calvinism spread throughout Europe, particularly to Scotland, the Netherlands, the Puritan element in the Church of England (and, via them, the Puritan element of America) and the Huguenots in France (who made up something like 1/15 of the population there).

[Willem]

Originally posted by Plotinus
Gosh, I'm getting confused now. How does the minority religions thing work? Is it like a Small Wonder, that you build once - so, perhaps, France is Catholic, but an appearance of the Revelation resource allows them to build the Huguenot Small Wonder in the relevant city?

Yes and no. For the Shiites, I've created a Karballah Wonder, which will build a Shiite Mosque in every city. But for the most part, the minority churches will only be an improvement. This resource I've created, and I've now added one for each religion, has a very short Disappearance Probability, a 1 in 3 chance of disappearing each turn like I mentioned before. So they tend to move around alot. And everytime one appears in a city's boundaries, a minority church can be built in that city only. The rest of the cities will be able to build only the regular church/mosque etc.

I see no problem with having a cathedral in a very small city. St Paul's Cathedral was founded when London consisted of about three Saxon traders and a very thin cat.

Good way of putting it.

I'd be interested to see what Wonders etc. you develop for Shintoism.

So would I.

I'm definitely biting off a bit more than I can chew with this idea. I've been at it for days now, not just with the religion part, but trying to add the historical depth I can can get in now that I can isolate all the groups and the civs. And I've been doing alot of plundering from the scenarios as well. For the time being, I think I'll just stick with the wonders that are included in the Shogun scenario, at least until I learn more.

I believe that Korea has been basically Buddhist and Confucian in the past, but today Christianity is very big there - more so than in any other Asian country, although it's not been there for nearly as long as in China.

And is there harmony between the Buddhists and the Christians? Can you pinpoint any particular event that introduces Christianity there that I could use as a Tech?
And what is the ratio of Buddhists and Christians? Should I make Christian churches a minority, or allow both those and Buddhist Shrines to be built?

The work of Calvin, including not only his writing but also his transformation of Geneva into a Protestant theocracy and the setting up of his famous Academy, led to the creation of a new Protestant Church, the Reformed or Calvinist Church, which existed in addition to the Lutheran Church.

That Academy sounds like it would make a good Wonder, is there any other name I could give beside's Calvin's Academy?

The Reformed Church was ultimately more successful than the Lutheran.

I'm familiar with the Reformed Church, my mother grew up with it in Holland. A very Puritanical group, she wasn't allowed to go dancing, go to movies or any of those types of recreation. Though she still did anyway.

[Lord God Jinnai]

The statistics for being 95% shinto for japan are based on a western defintion of religion which doesn't hold water in eastern religion.

Western religion is more concerned with doctrine and eastern with ritual...while nothing is ever 100%, that is the main reason for such a large percentage of japanese being shintoistic, ie they perform the rituals, but more out of tradition than for any real thought that kami actually exist, or atleast exist in such a way that they interact with the real world as their anscestors contend.

That and that China should not be veiwed as merely "(Neo-)Confuscian." Budhism had just as much, if not moreso on a local level, of an impact as (Neo-)Confuscianism. Islam could be ignored as it never got huge hold, but it was the largest contended beyond those 2 and did make many conversions, even among high ranking officals.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Err forgot to mention...my point of my post is that Japan should be budhist, neo-confuscian and shintoist...no one is enough to show the practices in any time save during the height of the Meiji Restoration in which Shintoism was brought into a whole new dimension it never had before (and since), and even then, the underlying budhist and neo-confuscian philosophies still guided the overall practices.

[Plotinus]

Originally posted by Willem
I'm definitely biting off a bit more than I can chew with this idea. I've been at it for days now, not just with the religion part, but trying to add the historical depth I can can get in now that I can isolate all the groups and the civs. And I've been doing alot of plundering from the scenarios as well. For the time being, I think I'll just stick with the wonders that are included in the Shogun scenario, at least until I learn more.

Well, it sounds like it's going to be really interesting, so stick with it! I hope you do find a way to post it.

Calvin's Academy always seems to be called just that, or the Geneva Academy. Still, if you can have something called Newton's University... I agree, it would be a good Wonder for the Protestants.

I know very little about Korea, I'm afraid, so this is rather off the cuff! Catholicism reached the country in the late eighteenth century, when Chinese missionaries brought a copy of Matteo Ricci's "The True Doctrine of the Lord of Heaven". Ricci had been a Catholic missionary to China, whose book presented Catholic teaching in the language and ideas of Chinese philosophy, something of a radical notion. It proved a big hit in Korea (could even be worth considering as a Wonder in its own right?). Unlike many other countries, Christianity became established in Korea as the people themselves studied its ideas, rather than having it imported by Europeans. Catholicism became very popular among intellectuals, but it was suppressed in the nineteenth century. Things got a bit better towards the end of the century as Korea, like Japan, opened up to the West, and the first Protestant missionaries arrived. Apparently, there are today 45 million people in South Korea, of whom 11 million are Protestant and 3 million are Catholic - in other words, a third of the population. North Korea, of course, is officially Communist.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Plotinus
It proved a big hit in Korea (could even be worth considering as a Wonder in its own right?).

I was thinking of a tech, some way of introducing a Church into Korea. I'd call it something like Ricci's "True Doctrine" that allows construction of them around the time of Magnetism. I have a hole in the Tech tree about there that I can squeeze it into nicely.

Apparently, there are today 45 million people in South Korea, of whom 11 million are Protestant and 3 million are Catholic - in other words, a third of the population.

So I'd still go with a minority church, though I'll have it add to the Buddhist Shrine, not detract from it. That will make it a positive for Korea, not a marginal like the Shiite mosques.

North Korea, of course, is officially Communist.

Well they're not in the game, so I can disregard them.

Thanks for the info.

[molly bloom]

I like your culturally specific religious wonders.

For the North American natives, you could have a general 'Serpent Mound' wonder:

http://www.ohiohistory.org/places/serpent/

as Cahokia was a city rather than simply a place of religious worship.

The world's largest totem poles are to be found in Western Canada, on Vancouver Island and in Alert Bay- perhaps just a 'Great Totem' wonder would be a better idea than naming it after a specific place.

Some Native Americans were more like the Celts and Australian Aborigines revering natural places such as Uluru and wells and rivers, such as the Thames.

What an excellent thread, in any case.

[Willem]

Originally posted by molly bloom
I like your culturally specific religious wonders.

For the North American natives, you could have a general 'Serpent Mound' wonder:

http://www.ohiohistory.org/places/serpent/

Thanks for the link. I was having trouble fguring out something for the Iroquois. There's a number of wonders I can give the the Mayans etc. in the Mesoamerica scenario, but I was stumped for something that was more North American. That should do nicely, though it's not exactly Iroquois. At least it's something I can conceive of them building.

The world's largest totem poles are to be found in Western Canada, on Vancouver Island and in Alert Bay- perhaps just a 'Great Totem' wonder would be a better idea than naming it after a specific place.

That's a good idea. Kind of silly that I never thought of it myself, considering that I'm living on the West Coast of Canada. Vancouver Island in fact. A little slow at the uptake I guess. It should even be easy to find some graphic I can use as well.

Some Native Americans were more like the Celts and Australian Aborigines revering natural places such as Uluru and wells and rivers, such as the Thames.

That's why I've classified them as Totemists.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Willem


That's a good idea. Kind of silly that I never thought of it myself, considering that I'm living on the West Coast of Canada. Vancouver Island in fact. A little slow at the uptake I guess. It should even be easy to find some graphic I can use as well.

If you wanted a specific placename for a totem wonder, rather than say just 'Great Totem' or 'Raven Totem' or whatever, then the one that springs to my mind is Ninstints, the World Heritage site in the Queen Charlotte Islands.

http://www.greatcanadianparks.com/bcolumbia/gwaiinp/page5.htm