Adding religions to the game

[Plotinus]

This is all extremely cool. I'm not entirely sure about the logic of having an Orthodox Christian civilisation building the Temple of Artemis and the Statue of Zeus, but there you go. Remember also that "Greek Orthodox" is a misnomer - there's nothing Greek about the Russian church, for example. Better to call them "Eastern Orthodox". If you want more civs to make Orthodox, you could do worse than consider the Hittites, Babylonians, and Sumerians - obviously they had all vanished by the time Orthodoxy came along, but the Middle Eastern churches are essentally the same as the Orthodox (although techically heretical and in schism with Orthodoxy).

Not sure about the idea of the Schism of Justinian, since he didn't do any schism. You might like to think about the Acacian Schism or the Photian Schism, since these were the first times there was official schism between eastern and western Christianity - or if you want an Emperor, you could make it the Schism of Irene (she called the Second Council of Nicaea in 787, which was condemned in the West at the Council of Frankfurt of 794 - or was it 796?). It's a moot point though, because the two churches simply drifted apart rather than offically splitting. The usual date given for the official split is 1054, which is when the Papal envoys deposited a Bull of Excommunication on the altar of Hagia Sophia, thereby excommunicating the entire eastern church.

Hope this helps. Sorry to nit-pick!

[Willem]

Originally posted by Plotinus
I'm not entirely sure about the logic of having an Orthodox Christian civilisation building the Temple of Artemis and the Statue of Zeus, but there you go.

Well the Greeks had established some colonies in what would eventually become Byzantine so it does make some sense. IIRC, Troy was in that general area. And I do have to make a few concessions working with the system I've developed. I can be very specific about certain civs, like the Romans and the Russians, but most others I'll have to make some compromises with. With the way I have it set up, both of those civs are Mediterrean and Orthodox, which allows me to single those out for that particular tech. The other Mediterranean civs are either Muslim, Carthage and Egypt, or Catholic, which is Rome.

Better to call them "Eastern Orthodox". If you want more civs to make Orthodox, you could do worse than consider the Hittites, Babylonians, and Sumerians - obviously they had all vanished by the time Orthodoxy came along, but the Middle Eastern churches are essentally the same as the Orthodox (although techically heretical and in schism with Orthodoxy).

Good advice on the name for the religion. But weren't those civs you mentioned in what is now Moslem territory? I'm not real big on Middle Eastern history, but I'm pretty sure that Babylon was in Iraq. I'm not sure about the Hittites and the Sumerians frankly, I know virtually nothing about them. I'm going by what the civs have ended up as in modern times, there's only so much I can do with religious diversity.

The usual date given for the official split is 1054, which is when the Papal envoys deposited a Bull of Excommunication on the altar of Hagia Sophia, thereby excommunicating the entire eastern church.

Thanks again for the advice. All I know of the split is that it had something to do with the implementation of the Justinian calendar, which is why I gave it that name.

I'm also thinking of subdividing the Muslims into Sunni and Shiite, but I have no idea how that came about. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I'm also thinking of adding Confucianism to the Asians, giving it to the Chinese and the Mongols and I would like the name of the principle book of his ideas, if there is one.

[Willem]

So for a further update on this idea, another thing I'll be able to do is create a tech that is a requirement for another tech, but I won't be able to research it myself, I'll have to trade for it. A couple of ideas that come to mind, is a Mercantilism tech for Europeans that is a requirement for Economics. Another is Marco Polo's travels which would be an Asian tech and be a requirement for gunpowder. So the other cultural groups would be forced to trade with an Asian civ in order to develop gunpowder.

[Plotinus]

Lots of interesting stuff here. I must say that I'm a historian of Christianity but know relatively little about other religions so I'm not much help there! For what it's worth, Confucius' teachings are gathered in his "Analects".

The main reasons for the split between Catholic and Orthodox were really cultural - totally different political situations and different languages meant that they never met each other. The two real issues were the role of the Pope, which the Orthodox weren't too happy about, and the fact that the Catholics had altered the Nicene Creed to give a different understanding of the Trinity, which the Orthodox were even less happy about (the Catholics, for their part, wrongly believed that it was the Orthodox who had monkeyed with the creed).

As for the Muslims, treat this with a pinch of salt as I might well be wrong, but I believe the Shi'ite schism goes back to the seventh century. After Mohammed's death, his father in law, Abu Bakr, became Caliph (as you will know if you've read the information on the Arabs in the Civilopaedia). But others thought that another relation, Ali, the Prophet's cousin and also his son in law, should have been Caliph. A schism therefore occurred, although it wasn't much of a schism because there weren't many Ali supporters. Ali did subsequently become Caliph, but after his death his supporters refused to recognise his successors. They instead appointed a new successor, called the Imam. From then on, most Muslims followed the official Caliph, but the Shi'ites or Shi'as ("Partisan", ie of Ali) followed the Imam, the successor of Ali. After Ali, the great hero of the Shi'ites was the Imam Husayn, who was killed at Karbalah by the then Caliph. This is why Karbalah is the holiest shrine of the Shi'ites, and why the Americans very nearly caused an unbelievably ghastly incident when they started waving guns around near it. There are no Imams today, at least officially, but the Shi'ites believe that there is always an Imam, even if he is hidden, and he is essentially the true prophet of Allah at any given moment. This belief is the only real difference between them and mainstream Muslims, to all intents and purposes. Islam is much more monolithic than Christianity, in the whole, so I don't know how useful it would be to split it into the different kinds in this game.

You're right that the Middle Eastern civs I mentioned were in territory that is all Muslim now. The Hittites were in what is now Turkey and Syria, the Babylonians in the north of Iraq, and the Sumerians in the south. However, I thought that if you're bereft of Orthodox civs it would be no more unreasonable to make them Orthodox than to make them Muslim (these civs had all disappeared long before either religion appeared). Christianity spread through the Roman (=Byzantine) Empire, and through the Persian Empire (approximately where Iran is now), and through the semi-independent states in the middle. By Byzantine times, the churches outside Byzantine rule had effectively split off from the Orthodox Church (over doctrinal issues - the Middle Eastern churches were what is known as Nestorian, meaning they had what the western churches regard as a heretical understanding of who Christ was). These churches were quite important in Persia - who were happy to promote them, since the Byzantines didn't like them - and they made important missionary advances into India and China. And they still exist today, although the Persian Nestorian Church is now called the Church of the East. There are plenty of Christians in Iraq, which under Saddam Hussein was a secular country, not officially Muslim, although most people there are of course Muslims of one kind or another. Egypt could fall into the same category, since they have always had the Coptic Church, which is also in schism from Orthodoxy (they are Monophysites, which is actually the opposite heresy to Nestorianism). The Coptic and Nestorian churches are, to all intents and purposes, indistinguishable from Orthodox. The Coptic Church has been equally important to Ethiopia, but they're not a civ in this game so we needn't worry about them for the moment...

Alternatively, you could create a new religious grouping for the pre-Islam Middle Eastern civs (Persia, Hittites, etc.) - Zoroastrianism, the religion of light and dark, which was the national religion of Persia right until the end, which was an important influence on Christianity and Judaism, and which still exists in Afghanistan. Not sure I can help you with any Wonders etc though...

Alternatively again, you might create a new religious grouping for all these ancient civs - you could call it Ancient Paganism or something similar, and give it to Carthage, Rome, Egypt, Hittites, Greece, etc. You could have the Temple of Diana and Statue of Zeus and the Oracle as Wonders for them, plus perhaps one or two new ones. That might help avoid the slightly odd situation of having a Muslim country research the Egyptian gods, for example. And it might be fun to see how civilisations with these "ancient" religions fare against the "modern" Christians and Muslims. But it's your mod, so I'll shut up now!

[Willem]

Originally posted by Plotinus


You're right that the Middle Eastern civs I mentioned were in territory that is all Muslim now. The Hittites were in what is now Turkey and Syria, the Babylonians in the north of Iraq, and the Sumerians in the south.

Any chance you could fill me in on how they're split between Sunni and Shiite today? Same with Egypt and Carthage, which I'm presuming was in what is now Libya. I'd like tobe able to narrow down the Wonders as closely to historical fact as possible, which is why I want to subdivide the Middle-East muslims. For instance, do you know which civ created the Nebedcannesur (sp?) tablets that were found? I've added that as a wonder which creates a Courthouse in each city and acts like a second Palace, since they dealt so much with law.

Alternatively, you could create a new religious grouping for the pre-Islam Middle Eastern civs (Persia, Hittites, etc.) - Zoroastrianism, the religion of light and dark, which was the national religion of Persia right until the end, which was an important influence on Christianity and Judaism, and which still exists in Afghanistan. Not sure I can help you with any Wonders etc though...

I've already done that. That was one I forgot to mention before.

That might help avoid the slightly odd situation of having a Muslim country research the Egyptian gods, for example.

That's not really a problem since the only Mediterranean Muslims are Carthage and Egypt. Carthage is a bit of a stretch of course, but there's only so much I can do with the editor. Maybe if I had a fifth tech slot for each civ I could work something out.

Thanks for the all the info. I'm diving into deep water with this new idea, and any suggestions of how I can expand it are greatly appreciate. Ever since I started working on my mod, I've been striving for more of a simulation, and this new idea has added a whole new level to it. Unfortunately, my historical knowledge isn't exactly up to the task at the moment. Looks like I'll be spending alot of time at the library doing some research. Lousy time not to have my own internet connection.

[Plotinus]

Not sure I can help much with the current state of Islam - you're best off having a look in an encyclopaedia in the library. But I do think that Shi'itism is essentially a minority concern, confined largely to the southern part of Iraq. It's not a major division like that between Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant in Christianity.

As for Nebuchadnezzar II, he was the second king of the renewed Babylonian empire of the sixth century BC, and he defeated the Egyptians and conquered Syria and the Holy Land, which is why he features in the book of Daniel in the Old Testament (where he goes mad). So it's the Babylonians you want with that one. However, I think it's Hammurabi who is really famous for his code of laws, far earlier, in the first dynasty of Babylon in the 18th century BC (hence his position as leader of the Babylonians in the game). Whichever you go for, it sounds a corking Wonder.

By the way, I believe that the city of Carthage was actually in what is now Tunisia, and their empire spread out to the west to cover most of North Africa, as well as much of Sicily and Spain. A glance at the Rise of Rome scenario might help here. Hannibal, you'll recall, had to start off in Spain and raise a huge army there, before walking all the way through southern France and over the Alps with all those elephants in order to invade Italy. It didn't take him a couple of centuries to do it, either, as it would have if he'd been following Civ rules.

Good luck in the library. I hope you'll be posting this mod when you're done as I'd love to have a go.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Plotinus
Not sure I can help much with the current state of Islam - you're best off having a look in an encyclopaedia in the library. But I do think that Shi'itism is essentially a minority concern, confined largely to the southern part of Iraq. It's not a major division like that between Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant in Christianity.

So I've decided to take things one step further and removed all the starting techs and replaced them as much as possible with religious ones. That allows me to completely isolate each civ based on religion and cultural group. I've added Lutheran to Germany, Calvinism to Netherlands and Anglican to England. Church of England is a natural for Anglicanism, any suggestions for the other two?

I took your advice and added Coptic to Egypt, so now they're the only ones who can research Egyptian Pantheon and build the Pyramids.

There's still a few I'm having trouble with though, maybe you could offer some suggestions. I don't know what to do with Carthage yet or Korea, as well as the Hittites and Sumeria. Would Sumeria happen to be in Shiite territory today? Portugal is another one I'm at a loss with. France I can give Huguenot (sp?) to, Spain can get Saracen and I was thinking today that with Ottomans I can also add Eastern Orthodox. That would make them the only Muslim-Eastern Orthodox civ.

As for Nebuchadnezzar II, he was the second king of the renewed Babylonian empire of the sixth century BC, and he defeated the Egyptians and conquered Syria and the Holy Land, which is why he features in the book of Daniel in the Old Testament (where he goes mad). So it's the Babylonians you want with that one. However, I think it's Hammurabi who is really famous for his code of laws, far earlier, in the first dynasty of Babylon in the 18th century BC (hence his position as leader of the Babylonians in the game). Whichever you go for, it sounds a corking Wonder.

IIRC correctly, the tablets dealt a lot with trade laws so I could always have some sort of commercial benefit to those and Hammurabi's Laws the courthouse. Maybe have them build a Marketplace in every city.

By the way, I believe that the city of Carthage was actually in what is now Tunisia, and their empire spread out to the west to cover most of North Africa, as well as much of Sicily and Spain. A glance at the Rise of Rome scenario might help here.

I did that last night and it's actually in Liberia.

Good luck in the library. I hope you'll be posting this mod when you're done as I'd love to have a go.

I'm hoping to but at the moment I have no way to do so. I don't have my own internet connection, I'm just using the library. However, it's going to take me a long time to get this done, so maybe by then I'll have one. It looks like this going to be an ongoing project, there's certainly no lack of historical events/structures to add to the game.

So I've come up with a couple of good trading techs for the Ancient Era. The Mediterraneans will get Shipbuilding which allows constuction of Galleys, and the Middle-East is going to get Diplomacy, which allows all of the diplomatic abilities except Trade Embargo. If I want either of those techs, I'll be forced to trade for them. But if I don't get them it won't be a game breaker, I can get the Caravel later and the diplomatic abilities I can get later like in the usual game. I'm a little dubious about the Marco Polo's Travels one since if I can't get Gunpowder for some reason, it could cripple my game.

It's been really handy being able to plunder the techs in the scenarios. It's given me ideas and saves me from having to type out he text myself later. Same with the Wonders.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Plotinus
Calvin's "Institutes"

I see you've already answered one of my questions. I'm not familiar with this work, could you summarize it and maybe suggest a wonder/improvement that could be build from it?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Plotinus
Egypt could fall into the same category, since they have always had the Coptic Church, which is also in schism from Orthodoxy (they are Monophysites, which is actually the opposite heresy to Nestorianism).

I'm beginning to like the idea of minority churches. What I've done is create a resource I call Revelation which is a requirement for any religious buildings. It has a very quick disappearance rate, a 1 in 3 chance of disappearing each turn, and they might reappear somewhere else. So if I use the flag that requires the resource to be within the city boundaries, I could have the other civs build them.

The catch is I can set it up so that there's a gain in happiness in the city that it's built in, but each one makes the rest of the civ's cities unhappy. I could sow the seeds of religious discord with them. I'm going to do that with the Shiite mosques for sure, it will be easy to implement there. The Coptic/Nestorian churchs and the Hugenoets in France might be awkward. It would seem kind of strange for the AI to research a tech that will create unhappiness in it's empire.

[asleepathewheel]

Extremely cool idea Willem

[Willem]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Extremely cool idea Willem

If you're referring to the minority churches, I decided that empire wide discord would be a bit much, I might end up crippling the civ. Plus it wouldn't really be fair since I'd know better than to build one, but the AI won't. So what I'm going to do instead is have the minority church make one citizen unhappy. That way there'll still be a cultural benefit, but the happiness effect between the regular church/mosque/temple and the minority one will cancel each other out.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Willem


If you're referring to the minority churches, I decided that empire wide discord would be a bit much, I might end up crippling the civ. Plus it wouldn't really be fair since I'd know better than to build one, but the AI won't. So what I'm going to do instead is have the minority church make one citizen unhappy. That way there'll still be a cultural benefit, but the happiness effect between the regular church/mosque/temple and the minority one will cancel each other out.

I was referring to the overall thread, not the last part in particular. I agree with your thought that it would most likely only serve to hamper the AI, perhaps thinking humans could weigh the cost benefit a bit better.

for the idea of tying some civs to religious groups. would add some additional depth to the game

[Willem]

I've come up with a new idea for the tradeable techs. I now have 16 luxuries in the game, so I'm going to set it up so that each of those techs reveals 2 luxuries. So for instance, I won't be able to see Ivory or Glassware on the map until I trade with the Mediterraneans for Shipbuilding. The Middle-East civs will reveal Incense and Dyes with Diplomacy, the Asians Silks and Mahogany with Asian Trade. And so on and so forth.

[Willem]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel


I was referring to the overall thread, not the last part in particular. I agree with your thought that it would most likely only serve to hamper the AI, perhaps thinking humans could weigh the cost benefit a bit better.

for the idea of tying some civs to religious groups. would add some additional depth to the game

It seems to be working out well, though I haven't playtested it yet. At least I've been able to isolate the various civs and groupings quite well. I've read posts from a number of people who wanted civ specific wonders, and I've found a way to accomplish this, plus add some historical depth to the game. I've been able to create the French and American revolutions and I'm going to be adding the Bolshevik Revolution and the Long March, all given only to those civs who experienced these events.

[Azeem]

Willem, it would be more proper to give the Mongols "Vajrayana Buddhism" - the Buddhism of Tibet. Mongols don't follow Confucianism, but Buddhism penetrated Mongolia.

Confucianism really isn't a religion (it's kind of strange that so many people think it counts as one), but a way of life and a philosophy. Daoism and Pure Land Mahayana Buddhism are actual "religions" in China.