Ducki Does C3C at Emperor

[Aeson]

Oh, did get a Settler from a hut, but disbanded it because it would screw up the expansion comparison. Otherwise I could have been ahead of 'normal' expansion even while pushing so hard for the Pyramids.

[ducki]

What I've gotten a bit better with is the method of shutting off the pump. I now try to remember to spit out 5 extra workers so I can immediately boost the city to size12. The workers fix up the terrain (maximizing production) and then join the city.

Jeeze, yet another elegant technique I need to tatoo on my forearm. Brilliant. Note to self. Remember this.

[DrSpike]

Ok, I'm intrigued. Let's use a 'representative' pyramids opening as a point for comparison. For me that probably means kicking a settler asap, using the capital, and kicking settlers/workers as much as is possible from the second and future cities, with some doing units. Pyramids arrives in 1250BC say, which is safeish even on emperor. Where's the break even point for expansion as compared to a granary first opening for standard terrain? Mostly I would conclude that it's too far away, and that I can expand sufficiently faster (because if the expansion was equal obviously all those free granaries in the long term are a big plus) to mean that the pyramids opening is not the best option. Usually I'd build a limited number of granaries early on (standard/large maps), and add some in other cities later on to aid growth from 6 to 12. Of course this means I spend more than 400 shields, but 60 shields much later on in the game is a far smaller price.

In my view the opening we were discussing (the cows on plains) the nice start increases the relative strength of the granary opening over the pyramids one, pushing the break even point much too far away. I would usually only seriously consider pyramids openings with no food bonus and nice production. Even then there can be other things that would make me not built them.

If you can post the 4000BC save MS, I'd appreciate it.

[Arrian]

You don't think it really hampered your REX, Aeson?

Did you really go granary-settler-pyramids, with no other builds in there (extra scouts, warriors)? And you finished with the city at size7.

So the build probably cost you... 2 settlers?

Come to think of it, maybe the Pyramids makes the most sense in a high-shield start with no bonus food. That way the opportunity cost of not using your capital to build settlers and/or workers while it builds the Pyramids is lower.

-Arrian

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Arrian
Come to think of it, maybe the Pyramids makes the most sense in a high-shield start with no bonus food. That way the opportunity cost of not using your capital to build settlers and/or workers while it builds the Pyramids is lower.

-Arrian

Exactly! Nice cross post. This is the key to why I agreed with you earlier about not using that start to build the pyramids. If it was tried at all it should be not in the capital but at another site that you can bump up to speed with pop from the capital.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'm feeling my way through this. I'd like to see if I can pull of building the Pyramids while still doing a reasonable REX, and figure out the best way of doing that. Clearly I haven't thrown enough resources at the wonder city, and that has hurt me. I will try more, fear not.

I fear not.

If you're really serious about getting the Pyramids, your early REX and military development will definitely suffer. You cannot do all two or three of these things at the same time and expect to be competitive in each. Building the Pyramids requires a big commitment.

Might I suggest you try some OCC games? I know you're not a fan, but that's the best way to learn how to focus all resources toward an early Wonder or three. That's where I learned that a Granary is useful even if you're not planning to REX.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arrian
Come to think of it, maybe the Pyramids makes the most sense in a high-shield start with no bonus food. That way the opportunity cost of not using your capital to build settlers and/or workers while it builds the Pyramids is lower.

With no bonus Food, you do not get Workers as fast, which means you improve tiles more slowly, which means the date at which you join Workers for a pop boom is pushed back. High Food is great for REXing, but it's also good for building Wonders. It's good for pretty much everything.


Dominae

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Dominae

I fear not.

Well Arrian's point is about how to minimise the damage to his expansion........the key to justifying the pyramids opening always depends on this. Yes expansion will suffer early on, but he just wants a 'reasonable' expansion in conjunction with the long term pyramids boost. Perfectly reasonable point for him to make IMO.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Dominae


With no bonus Food, you do not get Workers as fast, which means you improve tiles more slowly, which means the date at which you join Workers for a pop boom is pushed back. High Food is great for REXing, but it's also good for building Wonders. It's good for pretty much everything.


Dominae

Yeah it's great for building wonders, but the more important point was the one I made earlier in response to you, and Arrian and myself just made in crossposting: the better start means the opportunity cost of building the wonder is much higher. Sorry to keep siding with Arrian here but his intuition is sound in this case IMO.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Arrian
You don't think it really hampered your REX, Aeson?

It slowed down the max possible REX (at least pre-1350BC... after that it would have boomed). Relatively though, if I had instead used my capitol as a military production city, as many players would, and had the second city as my pump (could have built a +4 or +3 city with it), then I'm not really slowing down expansion much at all. I'm making myself weaker militarily.

The Granary did slow things down though. The 60 shields that went into it would have let me build the Pyramids close to the same time without the faster growth. Still a slight advantage to the Granary there, but when you factor in the second city being built earlier, it swings in favor of no Granary. The second city should have been up and running sooner, and even if it then needed to add a worker or two back to the capitol, it still would have been ahead of where I was.

Did you really go granary-settler-pyramids, with no other builds in there (extra scouts, warriors)? And you finished with the city at size7.

No, I built a Warrior first, just figured that was a given. With the Scout it was pretty decent for exploration, contact, and the Warrior close to home was able to deal with barb problems (the nice AI helped out in that regard too ). As a non-expansionist would probably want another Warrior in there somewhere, but then everything else would likely be easier considering I disbanded a big part of the Expansionist's edge.

[Aeson]

I think the opportunity cost of building the Pyramids favors high food starts. You just don't build the Pyramids in the high food cities.

The Pyramids shouldn't affect your expansion much, it should affect your military early on quite a bit (that's ~40 Warriors you just built there).

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Dominae


It's possible that the AI rushed the Pyramids with an SGL. That is definitely a weakness of the early-Wonder gambit. SGLs should not appear before Literature.


Dominae

This is so true. If you get Philosophy first and get an SGL from it or the free tech, the game is ruined.

I would like to see it so none could be allowed from ancient tech.

[Arrian]

A couple of questions:

1) If playing a religious civ, would you consider building a temple in the city first to help keep it happy? I'm sure getting to a juicy tile via border expansion would effect the answer, but let's ignore that for now.

2) When building the Pyramids in your 2nd city, would you found it and immediately start the wonder, or would you punch out a couple of warriors first (for MP and basic defense)?

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by vmxa1

This is so true. If you get Philosophy first and get an SGL from it or the free tech, the game is ruined.

I would like to see it so none could be allowed from ancient tech.

As with most things of this nature, I'd like to have it be an option at game start, like culture flips now are. Maybe have three options: 1) as it is now, 2) No SGLs in the ancient era; 3) No SGLs.

The best luck I've seen lately with them was a game my gf was playing. I convinced her to research Code of Laws first, then Philo, and take Republic as the bonus tech. She did, and got a SGL from Republic. BAM, revolution right there, Pyramids rushed. They completed in anarchy.

Game, set, match, I know. At least for really good players. For not-so-good players, it can be a lot of fun to get a boost like that and feel the power. And then there is me, who always wants to feel the power.

-Arrian

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Aeson
I think the opportunity cost of building the Pyramids favors high food starts. You just don't build the Pyramids in the high food cities.

Sure. I mentioned that several times.

Originally posted by Doc

If it was tried at all it should be not in the capital but at another site that you can bump up to speed with pop from the capital.