Ducki Does C3C at Emperor

[Dominae]

The best thing to do with that many Cattle (that I can think of) is to produce a Settler ASAP, build a lot of Workers, then work to set up two pumps simultaneously.

I would place that early Settler NW-NW of the capital. This gives you a two 4-turn Settler-pumps or, better, a 4-turn Settler-pump and a 2-turn Worker pump. That leaves on Cattle unaccounted for...it would be used by a third city for whatever you like (maybe more Settlers).

The key to working this out just right is knowing how many Workers to build before you start on the Granary. Not an easy problem.


Dominae

[Dominae]

ducki, if you're really having trouble finding a game without so many Cattle (yeah right), here's one for you:

[Dominae]

Save:

[ducki]

Thanks Dom, I'll put that in my queue. Right now I'm trying MZO's BC-VII and getting my butt handed to me.

[vmxa1]

Cattle on plains, wow, I was just wondering if that could occur. I could not recall if I had seen that or not. I knew wheat could be on grass and plains.

[ducki]

Hey, Dom - NW-NW of Entremont is a mountain.
Did you mean W-NW(4-7) or N-NW(8-7)? I'm thinking W-NW(4-7), otherwise the second city only gets to work that one cow, which irrigate I think is 3-2 with the penalty, so you'd only be +4fpt.
I guess I answered it myself, but just wanted to be sure. W-NW so you have both the grass cow and a plains cow even though I think you do not get the city-tile bonus. I never can tell just by looking whether a tile is riverside or not.I have to right-click and check for a Gold bonus.

So, W-NW, between the mountain and the bonus grass?
Irrigate all the cows giving Town 2 +5fpt from 1 grass and 1 plains cow and the Capitol +6fpt from 1 grass, 1 plains and city-tile, allowing you to mine one of the plains?

Of course, if the second city-site is actually riverside, there's not much point irrigating that plains cow and you get nothing by mining it, so you can save worker-turns by just roading it and leaving it as 2-2-2. (Edit) In fact, the capitol is in the same boat. You could save, IIRC, 3 worker turns by not irrigating the plains cow and just road it, since you get the city-tile's bonus food. Or you could irrigate it and mine the grass cow, getting you 4 "extra" shields per settler, allowing you to work the Fish some for extra commerce, no?

Or have I simply confused myself and anyone trying to follow along?

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'm not saying one couldn't nab the Pyramids.

I just usually don't bother investing in it.

Early granary = 60 shields. This can be up and running pretty fast. You're pumping (sorry, not sure about THAT image) quite early. And often . With the right terrain, 2 or even 3 core pump cities, each requiring a 60-shield investment, probably beats out the Pyramids in terms of the effect on early game REX and consolidation.

The Pyramids requires devoting a powerful city to producing 400 shields (in other words, 40 turns of a 10spt city) early in the game. Instead, that city could punch out a granary and start contributing to your REX.

I don't know... I admit that I may have this wrong, but I often feel that the Pyramids aren't worth the investment of building yourself.

edit: if, however, I was to find a high-production city nearby that wasn't pump-capable (say a city with a bundle of bonus grassland, but no bonus food sources), that city could clearly take a shot at the Pyramids without really interfering with my REX.

What I'm on about is the idea of using a pump-capable city on wonder building early in the game. If that's not an issue, then hell, no problemo.

I wasn't going to post in this thread but I have to to point out how on the nose this post really is, since Arrian is being characteristically modest. Using that start to build the pyramids is highly questionable no matter what the level. What is more as to the general point made I completely agree that the pyramids gets used too much. It's a great wonder, one of the best, but even bearing that in mind the onus IMO should always on the player to justify why they are spending 400 crucial early shields on what is mostly a crutch. I say mostly because there are of course exceptions, one of which Arrian also gives.

And don't get me started on using 400 shields on the GL with that start.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ducki
Hey, Dom - NW-NW of Entremont is a mountain.

Ah, that should be NE-NE. Capital uses one Grassland Cattle, second city uses two Plains Cattle. That leaves one Grassland Cattle for some third city.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Doc
I wasn't going to post in this thread but I have to to point out how on the nose this post really is, since Arrian is being characteristically modest. Using that start to build the pyramids is highly questionable no matter what the level.

Care to demonstrate why? I know it's tough on Sid, but I have yet to hear an argument why it's less efficient on lower difficulty levels (where you're more likely to grab it).


Dominae

[Arrian]

Well, for my part, like I said I'm not sure of it, but my feeling is that using a +5fpt capable city on the Pyramids may harm your REX, when compared to building a granary and using the city as a settler/worker pump. In this particular case, since you have 2-3 possible pumps there, I guess that might not matter.

Would you build granaries anywhere if you were planning on getting the Pyramids? I probably wouldn't, since the Pyramids will provide them for free later. But that means that your initial pop growth and therefore expansion is slowed. It will speed up later, once the Pyramids are complete, yes, but the earlier you start up that pop power boost the better.

The only way to know is to play it out, once with my normal granary-fed REX, and once trying for the Pyramids, and see how it goes.

-Arrian

[ducki]

I never thought of it, but 400 shields is a lot.
(I'm opening my mouth awfully wide here, I should be able to fit both feet.)

Pyramids = 400 shields
Granary = 60 Shields(IIRC)
Settler = 30 shields

+5fpt means we're not constrained by food or shields for pumping and are operating at maximum efficiency(or so I am assuming)

So, which is better?
The Great Pyramids
or
Granary + 11 Settlers + 1 Worker
Edit: This does not take into account the number of turns to completion. The 400 shields for the pyramids will invariably be generated before the 400 shields for a granary, 11 settlers, and a worker because the Pyramid build will not bounce from size 6 to 4 every 4 turns and will just grow steadily, reaching 400 shields sooner than the pump. I think.

The old me would desperately want to build the Pyramids in my "best" city, which would usually be my capitol.
The new me says I'd rather have 11 more towns.

Of course, Civ is rarely a pure either-or situation, so I think the real question for me would be which of those 11 settlers would make an attempt at the Pyramids (if any)?
Without actually trying it, I'd _guess_ Town3. Settlers every 4 from Capitol, Defenders as often as possible from Town2 until a better defender town gets going, and Town3 starting on the Pyramids straight away, with Town2 getting a (rushed?) granary when a new Defender factory is set up so it can push pop point to the Pyramids town and try to keep up with the Settler pump on tiles.

But the more I think about it, the more I'd probably skip the Pyramids altogether - of course, I've been on a bit of an anti-Ancient Wonder kick lately - I think I got too comfortable at Monarch level, so I could just be totally biased.

[Aeson]

One thing to take into account with the Pyramids is that it's not just 400 shields for those granaries, but for denying those granaries to the AI. Map Size (or continent size) is a big factor as well. On a huge landmass the Pyramids are unequaled in power while on a Tiny one it's just a glorified Granary or three.

Best way to get the Pyramids (or any Ancient Wonder) in a high food start is to found your second or third city in a high production area and add Workers from a pump. You usually need to add 4-5 Workers to get the Pyramids this way on Emperor, as one of the AI will consistantly finish it at or just after 1000BC.

Because building the Pyramids is a more peaceful approach, it's best to use one of the cities that would otherwise be dedictated to military production for the build. Generally you aren't going to want to fight as early anyways while putting 400 shields into improvements instead of military. Because of this, the cost to your Rex is limited to the Workers added, as the city wouldn't be building Settlers in a more military oriented approach anyways.

The other thing you can't overlook is that you aren't just adding these Workers for the Pyramids. That city (at size 12 by the end of the build) will be a super unit producer (15-20 spt... 30 in a representative GA) once it's finished, or can generally claim 2-5 more Ancient Wonders. At the high end with a coastal city, Ivory, and around 20 spt at size 12 (no GA), you can grab the Pyramids, Mausollos (pretty important one to get so you can drop your Lux rate down), Zeus (build it last if you have a monopoly and arn't going to war), and Great Library (build it last otherwise). Then pick 2 between The Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Lighthouse, or Artemis (cost: 2 generally).

[vmxa1]

For me the choice would come down to the location/map. If I am in a small island, don't need it. If I am in any size land mass, but have lots of neighbors close, I can't afford to spend the time.

I would need a large amount of available land, that I could expect to get, if I built it. The level comes in to play when I am on Deity or Sid, I can't get it. If I was to play on Chief/Warlord/Regent, I may build it for GP.
So it it is the levels in between that I have to think about it. BTW I seldom build it regardless.

[Arrian]

Good point, Aeson, re: denial. That is definitely a factor.

If I was to take a shot at the Pyramids, I would do as you suggest: use a city that otherwise would build a barracks and troops.

I tend to prioritize getting a couple of barracks cities up and running quickly, since I generally open with the granary-in-capital thing and therefore have a pathetic military early on. So I (over)compensate by having multiple cities build barracks right quick and being pumping troops (and, if available, one of 'em builds Zeus).

-Arrian

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Dominae


Care to demonstrate why? I know it's tough on Sid, but I have yet to hear an argument why it's less efficient on lower difficulty levels (where you're more likely to grab it).


Dominae

The best start is probably (we can only see a piece, and you would have time to adapt in game) 2 cities kicking settlers with a granary each, provided you have enough room to expand. Why wait for the pyramids? If you're doing a granary opening you wont get the pyramids unless you play clever with another site you bump with pop from the factory. Furthermore, forgoing the opening I suggest on that start to get the pyramids will break even in food terms far enough into the future as to be only atttractive on an extremely large map. This is what the good start does here - makes the granary opening more attractive relative to the pyramids one, pushing the break even point further into the future.

Anyway what attracted me to comment on Arrian's post was that I didn't want his insight to get marginalised because he wasn't certain of his ground, though he intuitively knows he is correct. The pyramids can be great (with some of Aeson's or Sir Pleb's well known huge map games being the most marked examples), but as I said the onus has to be on the player to justify spending 400 shields in the crucial early game - you might well be able to, but all too often IMO wonders get built as a reflex just because it's possible to build them on the lower levels. In earlier games you had to justify forgoing key early wonders, but in Civ3 wonders are weak enough, and expensive enough in opportunity cost terms for it always to be necessary to justify spending those shields. I don't see this point made enough on these forums, so I'm having a shot at it.

IMO this point is key to difficulties experienced when players are 'moving up' a level (I hate that phrase). They can get wonders at Monarch, and they think they need them. Then when they increase the difficulty and don't get them their games are based around crutches that are not necessary in reality anyway. Too many best wonder threads perhaps - maybe I'll start a "why you shouldn't build wonder x" series to compensate.